Around Baseball 2018

[Dr. Dinger]

Unfortunately other than Donaldson a lot of his risks were trash here.

 

The best gift that AA gave us hasn't even arrived yet.

[Jimcanuck]

I thought the consensus was that the Florida deal still worked out for us generally...just not as great as hoped.

 

Only Buehrle earned his contract? Jays still paying for that deal through Tulo? The trade was a lose or both sides, didnt work out for either.

[Spanky__99]

I thought the consensus was that the Florida deal still worked out for us generally...just not as great as hoped.

 

Yeah, are spects didn't bite us as much. Swing and a miss in itself.

[Spanky__99]

Maybe. When is Trout a FA again? 2020.

 

AA and Braves have a chance to be a powerhouse for a long time. I get that they have a surplus of pitching prospects, but they would be better off converting thise into longer term assets?

 

2021

[Spanky__99]

Only Buehrle earned his contract? Jays still paying for that deal through Tulo? The trade was a lose or both sides, didnt work out for either.

 

Wat?

[BTS]

I thought the consensus was that the Florida deal still worked out for us generally...just not as great as hoped.

 

No, the Marlins trade didn't work out at all. Bonifacio wasn't worth his money. Johnson wasn't worth his money. Reyes wasn't worth his money and we're still eating s*** for taking him on. The only piece of that deal that earned his keep was Buehrle.

 

It just looks better than it did initially because most of the assets we gave away didn't pan out. But we could have received Johnson, Reyes, Buehrle, and Bonifacio for nothing but a bag of balls, and it still would have been a bad trade.

[Jimcanuck]

2021

 

I'm reading, after the 2020 season.

[G-Snarls]

Maybe. When is Trout a FA again? 2020.

 

AA and Braves have a chance to be a powerhouse for a long time. I get that they have a surplus of pitching prospects, but they would be better off converting thise into longer term assets?

 

Trout $33,250,000 in each of 2019 and 2020, the he's a free agent. He also has a full no trade clause, but may be fine with moving, who knows.

[Spanky__99]

No, the Marlins trade didn't work out at all. Bonifacio wasn't worth his money. Johnson wasn't worth his money. Reyes wasn't worth his money and we're still eating s*** for taking him on. The only piece of that deal that earned his keep was Buehrle.

 

It just looks better than it did initially because most of the assets we gave away didn't pan out. But we could have received Johnson, Reyes, Buehrle, and Bonifacio for nothing but a bag of balls, and it still would have been a bad trade.

 

Financially, right? How are we still eating s*** for taking him on?

[BTS]

People hate it because we gave up 7 players who all put up like 0.5-1.5 wins a year for a couple years. And then they add up the WAR as if it's not spread across 7 guys and as if you can't replace it easily with other league min vets.

 

Only guy we gave up was Yunel but we had to because he wrote a slur on his face.

 

But back then, and maybe still, it's hard for us to use our payroll space in free agency because we're not going to sign the big name who gives you actual value, like Scherzer or something. We're going to sign the guy who no one else really wants that much, and we're going to have to overpay.

 

So AA's solution was to force them to come here by trading for them (Jose Reyes). Because Jose Reyes would never sign here. So he had to gamble on trading C prospects in order to do that. And I think Reyes gave us like 6 WAR for 26M before we dumped him for Tulo.

 

And now this new regime is going into the same phase where we have tons of payroll room and nothing to use it on. We could probably take on a terrible contract and gain some prospects. Or we could go the AA route and trade some of the C guys we've stock-piled for a decent veteran. But most likely we will just not use the payroll.

 

It was a horrible strategy. Free agent contracts are generally bad. Those contracts generally look worse and worse with every year that passes after they're signed. Acquiring those contracts after what is typically the most team-friendly years have already lapsed is not desirable. Paying actual assets to do it is insanity.

[Spanky__99]

I'm reading, after the 2020 season.

 

Wat?

[BTS]

Financially, right? How are we still eating s*** for taking him on?

 

Tulowitzki.

[Spanky__99]

Because of Tulo.

 

Yeah, hindsight is 20-20... everyone hear was jacking off to that deal whilst getting rid of Reyes. People need to gauge trades at the time, right?

[Abomination]

Did we ever find out if any of Tulo's contract is insured?

[Spanky__99]

Tulowitzki.

 

Did you hate that trade at the time?

[BTS]

Did you hate that trade at the time?

 

Hate? No. I was mocked for saying I wasn't crazy about acquiring Tulo's contract though.

[Jimcanuck]

I was ambivalent about the Tulo trade, hence didnt post anything about it

[Spanky__99]

Hate? No. I was mocked for saying I wasn't crazy about acquiring Tulo's contract though.

 

That's fair, I was in awe, and I believe I agreed with your wet blanket to a point, lol.

[Dick_Pole]

 

But back then, and maybe still, it's hard for us to use our payroll space in free agency because we're not going to sign the big name who gives you actual value, like Scherzer or something. We're going to sign the guy who no one else really wants that much, and we're going to have to overpay.

 

Defeatist attitude brought on by a Canadian inferiority complex and years of Ricciardi brainwashing. Toronto/Canada was plenty good enough for Winfield, Molitor, Morris, Stewart and Clemens, some of the biggest stars in the game. Winning, or the history of a winning attitude and smart franchise brought those players here. There's lots of places that are less desirable than Toronto for most players, and not every player is the same. Remember the Yankees fans through a big hissy fit when their team was the first to be told to f*** off by Ohtani.

 

Pretty sure if you look through the history of free agents, Toronto has signed more than its fair share of stars. An average team signs only 1 out of every 30 players. We're just looking at it through the eyes of the aforementioned inferiority complex and the close division rivals get even more than their fair share.

 

All that doesn't even account for what BTS said about it being a poor strategy.

[Jimcanuck]

It's not a great strategy, I agree. But Reyes and Buehrle gave us adequate production for their salary. I think it was surplus production. They were not minuses. Josh Johnson averaged 4 WAR a year for the 4 years prior to becoming a Blue Jay! He had no term and negligible salary remaining. Even that s*** bag John Buck was a decidedly positive player.

 

I think you can say these were all good players that we acquired.

 

The alternative was to go into free agency with that money. I think it's a reasonable question as to whether we could have got that much production out of free agency. And it would have been irresponsible to not try and put a winning team around the primes of Bautista and Encarnacion.

 

TLDR: How were we going to try and use the payroll space to win with prime Jose/Edwin? To me, there is no scenario where you can not go for it in some way. It's debatable how much better we could have been using another course of action. Of course it's possible we could have done better but I don't think Marlins trade was the problem.

 

Nothing wrong with AA's strategy once the decision made to push for a win during the jose edwin window. the gamble didnt turn out great, par for the course for FA contracts

[Spanky__99]

Defeatist attitude brought on by a Canadian inferiority complex and years of Ricciardi brainwashing. Toronto/Canada was plenty good enough for Winfield, Molitor, Morris, Stewart and Clemens, some of the biggest stars in the game. Winning, or the history of a winning attitude and smart franchise brought those players here. There's lots of places that are less desirable than Toronto for most players, and not every player is the same. Remember the Yankees fans through a big hissy fit when their team was the first to be told to f*** off by Ohtani.

 

Pretty sure if you look through the history of free agents, Toronto has signed more than its fair share of stars. An average team signs only 1 out of every 30 players. We're just looking at it through the eyes of the aforementioned inferiority complex and the close division rivals get even more than their fair share.

 

All that doesn't even account for what BTS said about it being a poor strategy.

 

lame... troll attempt, bruh!

[glory]

The alternative was to go into free agency with that money. I think it's a reasonable question as to whether we could have got that much production out of free agency. And it would have been irresponsible to not try and put a winning team around the primes of Bautista and Encarnacion. .

 

One of the things I distinctly remember about that off season was that the Angels were willing to give up both Ervin Santana and Dan Haren for a sack of s***. They literally just wanted out of their contracts and didn't care about the return. I remember wanting the Jays to go that route (expensive for a year but would eat up innings and stay healthy unlike all their other starters). That was also the same off season that Martin signed a 2/17 deal with the Pirates, which the Jays could have easily beaten.

 

Point is, there were deals out there. Maybe not as sexy as the Miami/Dickey ones looked at the time, but more sensible and could have used the prospect bullets for later. Not saying it would have been easy or anything, but I don't think that was their only way of building a quality team around Bats/Edwin.

[BTS]

It's not a great strategy, I agree. But Reyes and Buehrle gave us adequate production for their salary. I think it was surplus production. They were not minuses. Josh Johnson averaged 4 WAR a year for the 4 years prior to becoming a Blue Jay! He had no term and negligible salary remaining. Even that s*** bag John Buck was a decidedly positive player.

 

I think you can say these were all good players that we acquired.

 

The alternative was to go into free agency with that money. I think it's a reasonable question as to whether we could have got that much production out of free agency. And it would have been irresponsible to not try and put a winning team around the primes of Bautista and Encarnacion.

 

TLDR: How were we going to try and use the payroll space to win with prime Jose/Edwin? To me, there is no scenario where you can not go for it in some way. It's debatable how much better we could have been using another course of action. Of course it's possible we could have done better but I don't think Marlins trade was the problem.

 

The Marlins trade didn't even have much to do with the team's success in 2015 and 2016:

 

- Johnson left after 2013 with the team getting nothing in return

- Bonifacio was traded for cash during the 2013 season

- Reyes was an albatross by 2015 and traded as negative value to Colorado for Tulo

 

The team moved hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and player assets, and the only piece of the return that actually helped them make the playoffs was a league-average season from Mark Buehrle in 2015.

 

So I don't really buy the idea that the trade was necessary or that the assets couldn't have been used more effectively elsewhere. AA basically took a bunch of purchasing power, and set it on fire.

[Spanky__99]

I was ambivalent about the Tulo trade, hence didnt post anything about it

 

Bats for controllable pitching is actually the right move

 

This is Donaldson, Martin, Tulo team now

 

glad Reyes and his albatross contract is out the door...... too bad it couldnt be norris instead of hoff and castro

 

AA sure does the unpredictable. This trade is for naught if the pitching is not improved. Not gonna be surprised if Bautista is moved to Cards for pitcher(s) under control. If not that, then prospects for pitching... ugh

 

Let's look at this trade as 3 separate deals:

 

Would you do Tinoco for Hawkins?

 

Would you trade Castro to get rid of Reyes's salary?

 

Would you trade Hoffman for Tulo?

 

No, no, and yes

 

ambivalent...

 

lol... I posted some of this to you last year, same result. *sighs*

Edited November 22, 2018 by Spanky99

[Spanky__99]

Nothing wrong with AA's strategy once the decision made to push for a win during the jose edwin window. the gamble didnt turn out great, par for the course for FA contracts

 

You wanted one of them traded, lol.

[glory]

I like Tulo, but the problem with adding him now (at the expense of the team's top prospect) is that you are paying him $100m over five years for what he did in the past, not necessarily what you can reasonably expect from him in his 30's going forward. So right off the bat that should have been a warning flag, especially since we saw Reyes erode before our eyes in a similar fashion.

 

Just posting this from the time of the deal in case anyone wants to lump me in with the Tulo lovin' crowd.

[BTS]

This is the only argument I can accept. The argument that we used our prospect bullets inefficiently and that we could have done better in the trade market. But I think we had to go into the trade market regardless.

 

I think the memories of Reyes and Buehrle are slightly skewed. For Reyes, it was like we signed him for 2/26M and he gave us 6 WAR. Buehrle was 3/42M and he gave us 7 WAR. Buehrle led us in pitching WAR for 2 straight years. Even Buck was 1.4 WAR for 1/6M.

 

We also acquired these players while trying to move Escobar, who we had to move.

 

The problem with Reyes was never the early years of the contract. It was the last 4 years of s*** that AA kicked down the road before leaving town.

[Spanky__99]

Boxbike, Nox, North, Dinger, Hurl, jaysblue, King, Org, havok24 and myself had woody's amongst many others... BTS, glory and SirBJay liked it, but were worried of future complications/handcuffs. Jim was ambivalent, lol. o2 flexed his belly, LTBF s*** himself over Hoffman, etc... Can't find a post from me through 32 pages... I was Bundy'd obviously. Edited November 22, 2018 by Spanky99

[Boxcar]

Boxbike, Nox, North, Dinger, Hurl, jaysblue, King, Org, havok24 and myself had woody's amongst many others... BTS, glory and SirBJay liked it, but were worried of future complications/handcuffs. Jim was ambivalent, lol. o2 flexed his belly, LTBF s*** himself over Hoffman, etc... Can't find a post from me through 32 pages... I was Bundy'd obviously.

 

What are you talking about

[Spanky__99]

What are you talking about

 

Tulo trade, meat. Did you not read this thread?