Around Baseball 2018

[Bobthe4th]

I think I'd quit following baseball if they're striking because Eric Hosmer cant get 200 million. They are willing to sacrifice and sweat it out? Like go f*** yourselfs

 

TBF it’s more the number of remaining free agents and the large number of teams not spending money on anyone that they’re unhappy about.

[jaysfan2014]

The problem isn't owners--it's greedy agents demanding way too much money for past performance, and due to increasing analytics and sabremetrics, along with recent bad contracts polluting the sport (Miguel Cabrera, Jordan Zimmermann, Pablo Sandoval, HanRam, Pujols...), teams are financially constrained. They can't afford to be giving 7-8 year deals to 30+ year old players especially at the risk they'll be DFAd mid-way thru the deal (see Sandoval). In addition, many teams are currently in a rebuild and some are a year to a few years from contending and just can't throw money at players.

 

Maybe if they'd demand fewer years and dollars teams would show up.

 

Most notable recently is Eric Hosmer--who is still demanding a 8 year deal, when the Padres and Royals refuse to do so.. and Moustakas still hasn't received an offer. Arrieta's decline is hurting his leverage--no team wants to pay want he's demanding, not even big market clubs. And of course, there's the endless game of chicken between Boston and JD Martinez.. he wants way more than 5 years, but Boston, burned by the Sandoval, HanRam, Castillo and the Price contracts, doesn't want to add another long term salary when Sale, Bogaerts and Betts are due significant extensions.

Teams are more willing to go the trade route (Yankees, Blue Jays, Astros) than pay huge salaries to talent that will decline in coming years.

 

And of course -- BORAS. That's the biggest one..

[burlingtonbandit]

I think I'd quit following baseball if they're striking because Eric Hosmer cant get 200 million. They are willing to sacrifice and sweat it out? Like go f*** yourselfs

 

Its not about Eric Hosmer but the other FA who are all waiting to get signed. Its pretty evident that the structure needs to be changed as owners are just keeping all this extra $.

 

Plus wouldn't you rather the money go to the players than these rich owners who don't give a s***.

[jays_fever]

TBF it’s more the number of remaining free agents and the large number of teams not spending money on anyone that they’re unhappy about.

 

A lot of free agents have taken less than what they're worth because thats what the market dictates right now. Owners and GM's don't owe unemployed players anything.

[jays_fever]

Its not about Eric Hosmer but the other FA who are all waiting to get signed. Its pretty evident that the structure needs to be changed as owners are just keeping all this extra $.

 

Plus wouldn't you rather the money go to the players than these rich owners who don't give a s***.

 

I personally don't care how the owners and players split the money. And if the players want to strike because they feel the need to squeeze out every million they can that's well in their right. But don't try to justify it by pretending the owners are these evil villains.

[burlingtonbandit]

Biggest change that needs to happen is the arbitration model and league minimum salary for the first 3 years of control. If you're going to keep the draft/IFA spending restrictions in place players need to be compensated when they are productive.

 

So you can either change the years of control from 6 down to 4 or 5(Can't see owners agreeing to that) OR you raise the minimum salary/change the salary structure so players are getting paid more based on what they are worth.

 

The Arbitration model needs to be changed no matter what anyway given how it rewards players for wins, saves etc..

[burlingtonbandit]

I personally don't care how the owners and players split the money. And if the players want to strike because they feel the need to squeeze out every million they can that's well in their right. But don't try to justify it by pretending the owners are these evil villains.

 

The players should blame the PA who f***ed them on the last CBA. Not saying owners are villans but players should get compensated what they are worth. And its clear that isn't happening.

[jaysfan2014]

Its not about Eric Hosmer but the other FA who are all waiting to get signed. Its pretty evident that the structure needs to be changed as owners are just keeping all this extra $.

 

Plus wouldn't you rather the money go to the players than these rich owners who don't give a s***.

 

Then some of the players should lower their demands.. many of them are not worth the $25M+/year they're demanding, not even close.. these aren't young players like Machado and Harper, who will get $30-$35M+/year next winter.. these are good players, but not elite talents.. and many are over 30 and likely to fall off a cliff soon talent-wise. Most of the problem is greed by the players and agents, especially at a time there's so much dead money in the game (ask the Red Sox, Dodgers and Tigers), and teams can't afford to continue giving bad contracts.

[jays_fever]

The players should blame the PA who f***ed them on the last CBA. Not saying owners are villans but players should get compensated what they are worth. And its clear that isn't happening.

 

I agree the arbitration model needs to be reworked. If you're confiding a player to a single team for 6 years and they're producing, they should be paid accordingly. MIN salary for a rookie should probably start at the 1M figure as well. Watching unemployed men cry over some sort of conspiracy is just very cringy, especially when they'll always say it's about their love of the game and for the fans.

[burlingtonbandit]

Then some of the players should lower their demands.. many of them are not worth the $25M+/year they're demanding, not even close.. these aren't young players like Machado and Harper, who will get $30-$35M+/year next winter.. these are good players, but not elite talents.. and many are over 30 and likely to fall off a cliff soon talent-wise. Most of the problem is greed by the players and agents, especially at a time there's so much dead money in the game (ask the Red Sox, Dodgers and Tigers), and teams can't afford to continue giving bad contracts.

 

The reason players are upset is because their entire careers they've been underpaid and haven't had a choice as to where they play. So when they finally get to FA and team aren't offering the $ that they think they are worth they're going to be mad.

 

Jd Martinez has been paid $22M in his career while he's been worth $108M of value in his career. I mean look at Donaldson who's been worth $285M in his career yet only been paid around $55M and won't get a huge contract because of his age.

 

Obviously the value per win would go down if players are getting paid more pre FA but I think that's what needs to change. Especially for pitchers because a lot of them get hurt before they're ever able to become FA and don't get paid for the value they provide.

[Abomination]

Biggest change that needs to happen is the arbitration model and league minimum salary for the first 3 years of control. If you're going to keep the draft/IFA spending restrictions in place players need to be compensated when they are productive.

 

So you can either change the years of control from 6 down to 4 or 5(Can't see owners agreeing to that) OR you raise the minimum salary/change the salary structure so players are getting paid more based on what they are worth.

 

The Arbitration model needs to be changed no matter what anyway given how it rewards players for wins, saves etc..

 

I would say a better approach would be to add arbitration years, but make arbitration start after the first year a player appears for more than (say) 50 games. So maybe have 6 years of control, but 5 of those years are arbitration.

[Dick_Pole]

There are three aspects to this that I see:

 

1. GM's are wising up to the fact that paying old players for past performance is a dumb idea. This is good.

 

2. Teams are purposely tanking and not participating in the free agent market. This is bad.

 

3. Teams are gaming the system. Extending control of future star players by keeping them in the minors. This is bad.

 

#1 is a perfectly legit way to go about business. Making smart business decisions based on analysis and 30 teams coming to the same conclusion is not collusion. Moreno's Angels debacle has been the final straw that broke the camel's back on that one. Star players and future HOFers are seen as "negative assets" in today's climate based on how much they are paid.

 

#2 and #3 are tied to the same problem. Baseball rewards losing. Teams should be expected/incentivized to put the best roster available to them out there at all times even if the playoffs isn't within reach.

 

I like Boras' idea where team get compensated more for meeting a certain threshold of wins. I think a draft lottery like every other sport would help too. Baseball has avoided the draft lottery system up until now, mostly because prospects are rarely immediate roster impacting players like in the NHL or NBA. But with how the game has shifted to valuing players with control, I think it's about time for one.

[Dick_Pole]

The reason players are upset is because their entire careers they've been underpaid and haven't had a choice as to where they play. So when they finally get to FA and team aren't offering the $ that they think they are worth they're going to be mad.

 

Jd Martinez has been paid $22M in his career while he's been worth $108M of value in his career. I mean look at Donaldson who's been worth $285M in his career yet only been paid around $55M and won't get a huge contract because of his age.

 

Obviously the value per win would go down if players are getting paid more pre FA but I think that's what needs to change. Especially for pitchers because a lot of them get hurt before they're ever able to become FA and don't get paid for the value they provide.

 

You know what, this thinking is a bit ******** too. It's not like that player woke up and was immediately good completely naturally. Players have received countless hours of the top training advice, medical services and equipment from the team. And most of those players bust. Teams don't do that without some expectation of getting a return on their investment and they have to recover that investment from somewhere, and that is through their stars.

 

If JD Martinez has such an issue getting paid only $22M when he provided $108M of value, he can leave baseball at any time and be paid exactly what he is worth as a human being outside of baseball and that is $12/hour bagging groceries.

[BTS]

An unweighted draft lottery for every slot in the draft held by a non-playoff team would be amazing.

[Abomination]

An unweighted draft lottery for every slot in the draft held by a non-playoff team would be amazing.

 

I agree (it's not necessarily such a bad idea in our dynasty leagues either imo). Also, allow the picks to be traded.

[AledmysDiaz]

There are three aspects to this that I see:

 

1. GM's are wising up to the fact that paying old players for past performance is a dumb idea. This is good.

 

 

According to the agent who wrote the letter, the GMs are telling the agents that Owners are the problems and dont want to spend.

[AledmysDiaz]

Why not put a luxury tax on the floor as well, at the very least take revenue sharing and competitive balance draft picks away. Right now there is an incentive for teams not to spend too much, there should also be an incentive not to spend too little.

[z3r0s]

An unweighted draft lottery for every slot in the draft held by a non-playoff team would be amazing.

 

The argument is always that you want to help this shitties teams get better, but that thinking isn't holding up in an era where team are ok with being reeeeeeeaaaaally bad for years to eventually compete. Also harder in baseball where it is really hard to make the plyoffs and you don't have that 'anything can happen if you make the plyoffs' cookie for mid-range teams

[jaysfan2014]

According to the agent who wrote the letter, the GMs are telling the agents that Owners are the problems and dont want to spend.

 

Blame technology, analytics and research--teams are getting smarter and not just paying just because a player hit 30+ HRs for one year and thinks they'll repeat (and end up flopping).

[Hipfan]

Blame technology, analytics and research--teams are getting smarter and not just paying just because a player hit 30+ HRs for one year and thinks they'll repeat (and end up flopping).

 

Then the system needs to change to reward younger players. Teams should not be allowed to hold back a player for a few weeks in the minors and get an extra year of control. Once a player is called up, it should burn a year in regards to service time, or something like that. This habit of keeping the best young players in the minors for a little while and gaining more service time, while within the current rules, is not fair to them. The players will need to force a change to this policy in the next CBA.

 

Players used to make up for this with large FA deals, but that seems to be coming to an end so the system needs to change. Arbitration needs to change, and/or when players are eligible for free agency. Maybe change it to 4 or 5 years service time, and kill the ability of teams to stash a player in the minor for a month and gain a year of control? I'd say if a player is in the majors for 1/2 or more of the year they get credit for a year's worth of service time. That would end all of this service time maneuvering garbage.

[burlingtonbandit]

You know what, this thinking is a bit ******** too. It's not like that player woke up and was immediately good completely naturally. Players have received countless hours of the top training advice, medical services and equipment from the team. And most of those players bust. Teams don't do that without some expectation of getting a return on their investment and they have to recover that investment from somewhere, and that is through their stars.

 

If JD Martinez has such an issue getting paid only $22M when he provided $108M of value, he can leave baseball at any time and be paid exactly what he is worth as a human being outside of baseball and that is $12/hour bagging groceries.

 

If players got to pick the teams they go to I'd agree more. A player gets drafted and has no choice of which org. he goes to. If you get drafted to a s*** team like Baltimore or Miami then there is good change you aren't going to reach the same potential if you had been developed by an org. like the Cubs, Yankees etc..

[Jimcanuck]

not much needs to be done, really

 

i would tie pre-arb pay to a performance value such as WAR, replacing the $500K std

 

don't care about lowered FA deals, its market determined

 

needs to be a soft cap at both ends to improve parity, with the penalty increasing more rapidly as a team moves further below the bottom cap or above the higher cap

 

increased pay and benefits for MiLB players, and severance packages for released MiLB players

 

a single draft for all players with 18 yrs being the age limit

 

weighted lottery system for all non-post season teams for draft order

[John_Havok]

Then some of the players should lower their demands.. many of them are not worth the $25M+/year they're demanding, not even close.

 

Yet some are worth 50 million easy, but will never get that either. I honestly think it's not so much about the dollars per year that bothers owners, it's the stupid lengths of deals that players want which largely ends up being dead money on a terribly performing player for 4-5 years, just to get the last 2 or 3 good years.

 

BtW, Hosmer put up 4 WAR last year and is projected near 3 next year, so him wanting 25 million isn't actually crazy, it's pretty in line with his projected performance next season. It's the 7 seasons of declining performance after that owners done want to gamble with.

[Spanky99]

Brandon Moss had some interesting comments on the off-season and CBA, he says the players have themselves to blame. 6:20 mark on the video link.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/brandon-moss-slow-free-agency-offseason-cba.html

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/moss-on-returning-to-as/c-1873761383

 

“Everything that happens in the game of baseball, as far as how things are done financially, is bargained into a collective bargaining agreement,” says Moss. “The way free agency runs, the way draft money is allotted, the way international signing bonus is allotted. Everything is bargained.”

 

“My career’s almost finished, so I don’t have to deal with this much longer, but the worry is there for me for players in the future that enough attention is not being paid to the way we allow our system to be run. I feel like we put more things that are of less value at the forefront. I feel like we’re starting to have to walk a little bit of a tightrope that we’ve created for ourselves. I think that we have given the owners and we have given the people who are very, very business savvy the opportunity to take advantage of a system that we created for ourselves.”

 

“…[W]e have the right to bargain and set our price, just like the owners have the right to meet that price,” Moss says. “But what we’ve done is we have incentivized owners, we have incentivized teams to say ’We don’t want to meet that price. It costs us too much to meet that price. It costs us draft picks. It costs us international signing money. … We’re going to have to pay a tax if we go over a certain threshold’ that we (the players) set ourselves. … And the only reason those things are there is because we bargained them in. If I’m an owner, my goal is to have the bottom line be in black — to put a winner on the field and the bottom line to be in black. The more opportunity you give me to do those things, the better off I’m going to be.”

 

“I feel like, as players, we have to watch out for our own interest,” he continues. “If you run too good of a deal out there in a bargaining agreement, then of course the owners are going to jump on it. You have to be willing to dig your heels in a little bit — fight for the things the guys in the past have fought for. … I just hate to see players like me taking advantage of a system that was set up for me, by other players, and not passing it along to the next generation of players. Everybody wants to look up and scream collusion … sooner or later, you have to take responsibility for a system you created for yourself. It’s our fault.”

[Maahfaace]

Brandon Moss had some interesting comments on the off-season and CBA, he says the players have themselves to blame. 6:20 mark on the video link.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/01/brandon-moss-slow-free-agency-offseason-cba.html

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/moss-on-returning-to-as/c-1873761383

 

Moss isn't wrong here.

[Spanky99]

Moss isn't wrong here.

 

Not at all. When's the next CBA, lol. That was agreed on, just last year. Found it, 2021.

[AledmysDiaz]

Strike is definitely on the horizon for 2021.

 

It could be good for the Jays. Adapting a system like the NBA and the NHL where there is a cap and a floor will result in a more even playing field. We may also see more playoff spots.

[Spanky99]

Strike is definitely on the horizon for 2021.

 

It could be good for the Jays. Adapting a system like the NBA and the NHL where there is a cap and a floor will result in a more even playing field. We may also see more playoff spots.

 

Meh, I doubt that ever happens. The latter, not the former.

[BTS]

The NHL system is f***ing terrible.

[Spanky99]

The NHL system is f***ing terrible.

 

So is the NBA, these suggestions will never happen.