Lack of home-grown premium hitters...

[L54]

You don't really 'develop' an elite hitter like Bryce Harper, Kris Bryant, or Manny Machado. Those guys are generational talents who would have succeeded in any organization. To get a guy like that, you just need to be a terrible for several years and also a bit lucky. Or you can hit the 1 in a million jackpot and get Mike Trout late in the 1st round.

 

Paul Goldschmidt? Jose Altuve? Tony Rizzo? Those guys are all elite hitters who weren't elite prospects or high draft picks. Yes, I believe there is more to baseball than random number generating.

 

Like I said earlier, I really don't care where our players come from. It makes literally 0 difference to me. But the Jays haven't had very much position player success in the last decade essentially, and it's fair to question it.

[Krylian]

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but that's the best answer in this thread.

 

 

 

Who came first... Carlos Delgado or Shawn Green?

[L54]

And what difference is that? We still have Travis for 6 years of control. Elite hitters get taken at the top of drafts, we haven't exactly had many high draft picks in recent years. Furthermore, why are we even talking about the supposed draft shortcomings of the AA and Ricciardi administrations? We are under a completely different regime now.

 

Edit: Derrrrp

[L54]

Does Yan Gomes count?

 

No. Yan Gomes suxxx

[Melvin]

Then create a 'This is a great Offence' Thread and leave this one to people that enjoy discussing drafting, player development, and everything that comes with it.

 

It's very simple.

 

But why does this thread matter? How much has this apparent lack of ability to develop homegrown hitting talent affected the Jays of today?

 

It's a stupid comment, and as someone said before, this is a completely different regime than the past, and they seem to have drafted some potentially promising position players.

[King]

Paul Goldschmidt? Jose Altuve? Tony Rizzo? Those guys are all elite hitters who weren't elite prospects or high draft picks. Yes, I believe there is more to baseball than random number generating.

 

Like I said earlier, I really don't care where our players come from. It makes literally 0 difference to me. But the Jays haven't had very much position player success in the last decade essentially, and it's fair to question it.

 

Rizzo was a top 50 prospect by Baseball America in 2012. But it's irrelevant to the point you were trying to make. I'm just throwing that out there.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2012/2612998.html

[GreekFatAss]

Who cares how we get them s long as they are good when they are here.

 

With that said, this Front office seems to be actively trying to remedy this.

[L54]

But why does this thread matter? How much has this apparent lack of ability to develop homegrown hitting talent affected the Jays of today?

 

It's a stupid comment, and as someone said before, this is a completely different regime than the past, and they seem to have drafted some potentially promising position players.

 

It's not really stupid, the organization's player development isn't immune to criticism. With the potential loss of EE, JB and Saunders it's fair for people to wonder where those replacements are going to come from and if there is any way to fill them internally. Like you and Dinger said though, this is literally the worst time to question it since the Jays are under an brand new regime.

[L54]

Rizzo was a top 50 prospect by Baseball America in 2012. But it's irrelevant to the point you were trying to make. I'm just throwing that out there.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/top-100-prospects/2012/2612998.html

 

Is top 50 elite? I wouldn't say so but at the end of the day I'll have forgotten I made this post so who cares!

[King]

Is top 50 elite? I wouldn't say so but at the end of the day I'll have forgotten I made this post so who cares!

 

I would say it's elite. Top 50 prospect in all of baseball is highly touted. Then top 10 is another level.

[Melvin]

It's not really stupid, the organization's player development isn't immune to criticism. With the potential loss of EE, JB and Saunders it's fair for people to wonder where those replacements are going to come from and if there is any way to fill them internally. Like you and Dinger said though, this is literally the worst time to question it since the Jays are under an brand new regime.

 

Yeah I agree, it was more about it being stupid because we have a brand new regime. I have confidence that Shatkins will fill the holes resulting in losses to any of the three you mentioned and keep us in contention until hopefully some of the lower level guys become solid homegrown talent. Maybe wishful thinking, hopefully not!

[L54]

I would say it's elite. Top 50 prospect in all of baseball is highly touted. Then top 10 is another level.

 

Okay I was wrong, I bow down Mr. Tapia

[L54]

Yeah I agree, it was more about it being stupid because we have a brand new regime. I have confidence that Shatkins will fill the holes resulting in losses to any of the three you mentioned and keep us in contention until hopefully some of the lower level guys become solid homegrown talent. Maybe wishful thinking, hopefully not!

 

I agree, seeing Shapiro's work over the last x amount of months he's been here I have a lot of confidence in him as well.

[Krylian]

But why does this thread matter? How much has this apparent lack of ability to develop homegrown hitting talent affected the Jays of today?

 

It's a stupid comment, and as someone said before, this is a completely different regime than the past, and they seem to have drafted some potentially promising position players.

 

And how long of a gap was there between 1993 and 2015. Maybe a few homegrown bats would've helped that drought.

[Krylian]

Who cares how we get them s long as they are good when they are here.

 

With that said, this Front office seems to be actively trying to remedy this.

 

Why remedy something that doesn't matter? You can't have it both ways.

[wamco]

Some of you in this thread really hate the thread so it's puzzling why You keep logging into it to post how much you don't care. To each their own.

 

The best thing we did for shawn greens development is to make him roommates with canseco. That worked out phenomenally. Hr went from 15 11 16 precanseco to 35 and 42. Jose should become a hitting coach.

[L54]

Shawn Green without Canseco HR's- 15,11,16

 

Shawn Green w Canseco HR's- 35,42

 

Solve for x

[wamco]

Is there an echo in here .... "Lol"

[wamco]

I'd say x = peds but I've been told peds don't enhance performance .

[L54]

Lol they certainly do. You are correct!

[wamco]

Lol they certainly do. You are correct!

 

Oh that's probably why they are called performance enhancing drugs...

 

I've always equated shawns green to incubus. Hear me out. Started out promising/sexy even (s.c.i.e.n.c.e. Album) and got super popular shortly after canseco/make yourself album) then got lame and fell off the map surprisingly fast.

One theory was that green was on ped and hoobastank just did a better impersonation of incubus than actual incubus.

[wamco]

also thole is kinda like tool, seems like many years between big hits. At least tool has the excuse that they aren't even trying .

One theory is that their song 3rd eye was actually about tholes wonky eye.

[wamco]

Trump agrees saying believe me, a lot of people are saying it.

[JoeCarter]

For a little perspective, from Red Sox current starting lineup:

 

Benintendi - 2015 1ˢᵗ round (7ᵗʰ pick) by the Boston Red Sox

Pedroia - 2004 2ⁿᵈ round by the Boston Red Sox

Bogaerts - 2009 int'l free agent, signed by Boston Red Sox

Betts - 2011 5ᵗʰ round by the Boston Red Sox

Shaw - 2011 9ᵗʰ round by the Boston Red Sox

Bradley Jr. - 2011, Suppl 1st rd (40th overall) by the Boston Red Sox

 

Meanwhile, we're left to reminisce about 4 good years Vernon Wells gave us over a decade ago. Let's not pretend that you need a top-10 overall pick in order to nab a productive major league hitter, or that a slight preference for drafting pitchers over positional players is responsible for this drought. Is there an element of chance involved? Of course. But it's not random, and recent history suggests that the Jays haven't been very good at it.

[Grant77]

For a little perspective, from Red Sox current starting lineup:

 

Benintendi - 2015 1ˢᵗ round (7ᵗʰ pick) by the Boston Red Sox

Pedroia - 2004 2ⁿᵈ round by the Boston Red Sox

Bogaerts - 2009 int'l free agent, signed by Boston Red Sox

Betts - 2011 5ᵗʰ round by the Boston Red Sox

Shaw - 2011 9ᵗʰ round by the Boston Red Sox

Bradley Jr. - 2011, Suppl 1st rd (40th overall) by the Boston Red Sox

 

Meanwhile, we're left to reminisce about 4 good years Vernon Wells gave us over a decade ago. Let's not pretend that you need a top-10 overall pick in order to nab a productive major league hitter, or that a slight preference for drafting pitchers over positional players is responsible for this drought. Is there an element of chance involved? Of course. But it's not random, and recent history suggests that the Jays haven't been very good at it.

 

Please do this for pitching. Boston has been a trainwreck and that's a nice way to put it.

[G-Snarls]

also thole is kinda like tool, seems like many years between big hits. At least tool has the excuse that they aren't even trying .

One theory is that their song 3rd eye was actually about tholes wonky eye.

 

Puscifer can kiss my ass.

[jaysfan2014]

For a little perspective, from Red Sox current starting lineup:

 

Benintendi - 2015 1ˢᵗ round (7ᵗʰ pick) by the Boston Red Sox

Pedroia - 2004 2ⁿᵈ round by the Boston Red Sox

Bogaerts - 2009 int'l free agent, signed by Boston Red Sox

Betts - 2011 5ᵗʰ round by the Boston Red Sox

Shaw - 2011 9ᵗʰ round by the Boston Red Sox

Bradley Jr. - 2011, Suppl 1st rd (40th overall) by the Boston Red Sox

 

Meanwhile, we're left to reminisce about 4 good years Vernon Wells gave us over a decade ago. Let's not pretend that you need a top-10 overall pick in order to nab a productive major league hitter, or that a slight preference for drafting pitchers over positional players is responsible for this drought. Is there an element of chance involved? Of course. But it's not random, and recent history suggests that the Jays haven't been very good at it.

 

Too bad unless Boston develops pitching, Pedroia and Bogaerts will be the only one who will have seen or will see a World Series (2013). Boston hasn't developed a quality starter since Lester.

Examples of Boston's poor pitching development over the years:

 

Felix Doubront

Brian Johnson (not sure about that yet)

Henry Owens (he of the 5.8 BB/9IP in Pawtucket)

Anthony Ranaudo

Trey Ball

Pat Light

Edwin Escobar (Giants prospect actually--but still a bust)

Allen Webster

Brandon Workman

Drake Britton

Stolmy Pimentel

 

Pretty long list of bad pitchers.. meanwhile, Toronto has Sanchez and Stroman, and developed good pitchers who were traded to other orgs. for offense or veteran pitchers, such as Musgrove, Syndergaard (whose Mets suck again BTW and we've beaten this to the ground already--sure it helped the Mets get to the World Series, but they're back to not hitting again, making Syndergaard basically wasted in NY), Nicolino, Alvarez (who we'll likely never see again due to his shoulder injuries.)

 

And the Sox have to win now--they're going to be in serious trouble in 2018 if the Yanks core develops.. they're in better shape than Boston. By then, Boston will be back towards the AL East basement because they're paying a post-prime Price and lack depth in SP and RP on the farm--with no real help in sight.

[Grant77]

Too bad unless Boston develops pitching, Pedroia and Bogaerts will be the only one who will have seen or will see a World Series (2013). Boston hasn't developed a quality starter since Lester.

Examples of Boston's poor pitching development over the years:

 

Felix Doubront

Brian Johnson (not sure about that yet)

Henry Owens (he of the 5.8 BB/9IP in Pawtucket)

Anthony Ranaudo

Trey Ball

Pat Light

Edwin Escobar (Giants prospect actually--but still a bust)

Allen Webster

Brandon Workman

Drake Britton

Stolmy Pimentel

 

Pretty long list of bad pitchers.. meanwhile, Toronto has Sanchez and Stroman, and developed good pitchers who were traded to other orgs. for offense or veteran pitchers, such as Musgrove, Syndergaard (whose Mets suck again BTW and we've beaten this to the ground already--sure it helped the Mets get to the World Series, but they're back to not hitting again, making Syndergaard basically wasted in NY), Nicolino, Alvarez (who we'll likely never see again due to his shoulder injuries.)

 

And the Sox have to win now--they're going to be in serious trouble in 2018 if the Yanks core develops.. they're in better shape than Boston. By then, Boston will be back towards the AL East basement because they're paying a post-prime Price and lack depth in SP and RP on the farm--with no real help in sight.

 

Desclafani, Hutchison, Norris, Graveman, Dyson...

[JoeCarter]

off-topic ramblings

 

irrelevant tangent

 

Thx for playing, but pitching has nothing to do with this topic. Maybe you should start a thread.

[Grant77]

Thx for playing, but pitching has nothing to do with this topic. Maybe you should start a thread.

 

There is no point in ignoring half of the game when discussing player development.