Catcher CS%

[LTR]

Martin has been so good at throwing out runners this year (50%). I wanted to look at the best in the game over the last 5 years... in this time Martin ranks 8th (still really good), though he also has thrown out the most runners because of pure playing time.

 

But look who's ahead of him in 6th, f***ing Yan Gomes!

 

More interesting in 2nd is Rene f***ing Rivera... from a defensive standpoint between his arm and his framing (he's the best framer - http://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com/threads/4504-Catcher-framing-redux) he's without question the best defensive catcher in the game.

 

Most of the rest of the top guys are not very surprising.

 

Also:

 

Navarro - 39th

Thole - 45th

 

 

By the way, league average during this time is 27.3%

 

Last 5 years, top CS% (1500 innings)

 

# Name CS%

1 Yadier Molina 41.70%

2 Rene Rivera 38.13%

3 Ryan Hanigan 37.62%

4 Matt Wieters 35.69%

5 Miguel Montero 35.22%

6 Yan Gomes 34.84%

7 A.J. Ellis 34.59%

8 Russell Martin 34.40%

9 Salvador Perez 34.25%

10 Jeff Mathis 33.01%

11 Martin Maldonado 31.97%

12 David Ross 31.65%

13 Wilson Ramos 31.60%

14 Chris Stewart 31.34%

15 Buster Posey 31.18%

16 Jose Molina 30.22%

17 Welington Castillo 29.87%

18 Drew Butera 29.66%

19 Miguel Olivo 29.50%

20 Brayan Pena 29.08%

21 Alex Avila 28.99%

22 Yorvit Torrealba 28.90%

23 Nick Hundley 28.74%

24 Geovany Soto 28.62%

25 Mike Zunino 28.40%

26 Wilin Rosario 27.98%

27 Tyler Flowers 27.52%

28 Brian McCann 26.92%

29 Carlos Ruiz 26.67%

30 Joe Mauer 26.21%

31 J.P. Arencibia 25.96%

32 Chris Iannetta 25.82%

33 Kurt Suzuki 25.30%

34 Devin Mesoraco 25.13%

35 Jonathan Lucroy 24.70%

36 A.J. Pierzynski 24.15%

37 Derek Norris 24.11%

38 Carlos Santana 23.87%

39 Dioner Navarro 23.37%

40 Jason Castro 23.34%

41 Carlos Corporan 23.03%

42 John Buck 22.98%

43 Jarrod Saltalamacchia 22.79%

44 Hank Conger 22.22%

45 Josh Thole 21.40%

46 Yasmani Grandal 19.33%

47 Jose Lobaton 19.23%

48 Michael McKenry 18.22%

49 John Jaso 15.43%

50 Rod Barajas 14.53%

[Praxis]

SSS for Gomes surely though? He's only played in 10 games this season. Not that I don't like him; I wish we'd had a catcher like that so we didn't have to sign Dough Boy or blow our brains out paying for an excellent one. Oh wait.........

 

Well, at least we got Esmil Rogers......wait....

[HERPDERP]

I don't like CS %.

 

It's just like ERA. The stat can be influenced outside of the player's control.

 

In regards to CS %, yyou have soooo many factors

 

-is the pitcher quick to home plate?

-does the pitcher have a good move to first

-does the pitcher hold the ball or vary the timing after being set?

-is the pitch a good pitch to receive (fastball vs offspeed)

-was the pitch thrown in a good spot for the catcher to release?

-did the player at the bag receive the throw cleanly?

 

We will never get an appropriate metric to judge catcher's throwing because it is too subjective. You'd have to look at arm velocity, accuracy, and time between receiving the ball and unloading. It'd be tough to get a metric such as that. And even if you get all of those, you still have factors out of your control, such as the pitcher and infielders.

[LTR]

I don't like CS %.

 

It's just like ERA. The stat can be influenced outside of the player's control.

 

In regards to CS %, yyou have soooo many factors

 

-is the pitcher quick to home plate?

-does the pitcher have a good move to first

-does the pitcher hold the ball or vary the timing after being set?

-is the pitch a good pitch to receive (fastball vs offspeed)

-was the pitch thrown in a good spot for the catcher to release?

-did the player at the bag receive the throw cleanly?

 

We will never get an appropriate metric to judge catcher's throwing because it is too subjective. You'd have to look at arm velocity, accuracy, and time between receiving the ball and unloading. It'd be tough to get a metric such as that. And even if you get all of those, you still have factors out of your control, such as the pitcher and infielders.

 

^Holy f***, the dumb!

 

While these are valid points on a small scale you're also being an over-analytical prick. There's no need for this. All of your points are negated over a large enough SS.

 

It's like looking a guys batting average over 5 years and asking "was the opposing defense good" - it's relatively stupid.

[Boxcar]

^Holy f***, the dumb!

 

While these are valid points on a small scale you're also being an over-analytical prick. There's no need for this. All of your points are negated over a large enough SS.

 

It's like looking a guys batting average over 5 years and asking "was the opposing defense good" - it's relatively stupid.

 

It's not the same at all. Yadier Molina has had a very similar staff for years now, and pitcher quickness to home is the most important factor in CS% which is outside of the catcher's control.

 

Try being less of a surly dickhead next time.

[LTR]

It's not the same at all. Yadier Molina has had a very similar staff for years now, and pitcher quickness to home is the most important factor in CS% which is outside of the catcher's control.

 

Try being less of a surly dickhead next time.

 

Why bother with stats at all? Let's not use any stats anymore, because there's always variables at play outside the players control.

 

I'm sorry but while this point is so captain obviously true, it's also relatively negligible. It's not enough to make a significant difference over a large SS... the data is still completely justifiable.

[HERPDERP]

^Holy f***, the dumb!

 

While these are valid points on a small scale you're also being an over-analytical prick. There's no need for this. All of your points are negated over a large enough SS.

 

It's like looking a guys batting average over 5 years and asking "was the opposing defense good" - it's relatively stupid.

 

what the f***. Why did you get all mad? I didn't even write that in a negative tone. And then you call me a prick?

 

lol

[LTR]

what the f***. Why did you get all mad? I didn't even write that in a negative tone. And then you call me a prick?

 

lol

 

You went way out of your way to make up a whole bunch of points about CS% not being valid (relatively untrue) just to spite my thread. I call that being a prick.

[HERPDERP]

It's not my intention to spite, I'm just spelling it out that CS % is not a good metric to use because it can be very unreliable. And I listed the reasons why up there.

 

If you really want to find a metric that would quantify the best catcher overall, I'd just take defensive WAR.

 

Martin is nearly 1 full point ahead of Perez as best catcher in the league. (6.2 vs 5.3). Rivera is at 3.7.

 

Also, another thing about CS %. Sample size. Rivera is at 9/19 while Martin is 18/18 (CS/SB)

[Boxcar]

You went way out of your way to make up a whole bunch of points about CS% not being valid (relatively untrue) just to spite my thread. I call that being a prick.

 

So what did you want people to contribute? Posts praising your thread creation skills? What an insufferable prick.

[LTR]

So what did you want people to contribute? Posts praising your thread creation skills? What an insufferable prick.

 

Never asked for anything like that. How about a normal discussion about catchers and catcher arms? Maybe some discussion about Martin's great arm? Guess that's too much to ask.

[HERPDERP]

Martin has a great arm. He's had several opportunities where he shouldn't have got a runner out (due to jumps) but he did.

 

Is Rivera's better than his? Probably. Probably not. We'd have to scout him for a lot longer to come up with that.

[LTR]

Martin has a great arm. He's had several opportunities where he shouldn't have got a runner out (due to jumps) but he did.

 

Is Rivera's better than his? Probably. Probably not. We'd have to scout him for a lot longer to come up with that.

 

There we go. By the way, on the topic of CS% being useless... I'm surprised you didn't even mention the opposing runners in your bullet list. Some divisions/leagues might have faster/more effective runners, plus the distribution of those running against could be better or worse, depending. Also, was the stadium open or close? How about air density? Temperature? How many games were played at Coors field? Did the catcher get laid the night before? Did he have a healthy breakfast that day? What else am I missing?

[HERPDERP]

Yes, that's one metric that could be in play, but I lumped it in with sample size (if catchers are given similar # of innings to catch, there will be more attempts with the speedsters).

[Boxcar]

Why would you be dumb enough to think that a discussion about CS% wouldn't include some discussion as to how valid it is, what other factors come into play, and how important those factors are? Why don't address the points and actually SHOW that those factors are negligible, and show over what sample that noise becomes quiet enough to rely on CS%? You know, like a normal thinking person.

 

Or walk us through your hypothetical desired discussion ...

"Martin's arm is awesome"

"Totally awesome"

"Is it really awesome, or just awesome?"

"Super totally awesome!"

"Isn't it awesome when catcher's have awesome arms?"

"Yeah, it's totally awesome!"

"That's awesome"

"Doesn't it suck when a catcher's arm isn't awesome?"

"Yeah, it sucks when a catcher's arm isn't awesome, unless it's average. Then it doesn't suck. It's just average."

"Totally average."

"Cool."

 

I've missed you Moogy

[LTR]

Yes, that's one metric that could be in play, but I lumped it in with sample size (if catchers are given similar # of innings to catch, there will be more attempts with the speedsters).

 

You also forgot number of people in attendence at the stadium. As we know with quantum mechanics, the observer or observers in this case may have what is called an observers effect on the behavior of subatomic particles, thus effecting the energy in play of the atoms in motion.

[HERPDERP]

You also forgot number of people in attendence at the stadium. As we know with quantum mechanics, the observer or observers in this case may have what is called an observers effect on the behavior of subatomic particles, thus effecting the energy in play of the atoms in motion.

 

Don't make it too complicated brah.

 

We all know that:

 

more people in stadium -> more CO2 - > heavier air - > more drop in the ball - > encourages more sinkers to be thrown - > more runners will want to run knowing a ground ball will come - > leading to more stealing chances

[burlingtonbandit]

Another factor are hte infielders good at tagging baserunners. Reyes in his 3 years here seems to have a lot of trouble but Goins and Travis in SSS have looked really good at tagging baserunners. Over a large enough sample CS% will show who are the better catchers at throwing out baserunners but it might just be easier using catcher's pop times and factoring in how accurate their throws are. It takes a lot of the other factors out.

[LTR]

Another factor are hte infielders good at tagging baserunners. Reyes in his 3 years here seems to have a lot of trouble but Goins and Travis in SSS have looked really good at tagging baserunners. Over a large enough sample CS% will show who are the better catchers at throwing out baserunners but it might just be easier using catcher's pop times and factoring in how accurate their throws are. It takes a lot of the other factors out.

 

So now we're back to the 1990's and using the "eye test".

[96MPHFB-----]

Can anyone update this? What a difference a talented catcher makes!

 

Was going to start a new thread, but figured we could use this one.