Around Baseball 2015

[Grant77]

Cameron included hitting in his NL Cy Young decision (which led to him to Bumgarner over Cole) .

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/explaining-my-nl-cy-young-ballot/#more-204248

 

The lack of criteria for the award causes a lot of confusion.

 

He's not clearly wrong, but I interpret the award as the best pitcher and not the best fielder or the best hitter. Those two clearly separate skills are part of the MVP criteria in my opinion. That award isn't pitcher specific, it's for everything.

[Grant77]

Very true.

 

Say a pitcher has a the best & fastest pickoff move ever, where no one can steal on him and any runner that gets on base would have to physically stand on the base otherwise he'd be picked off. That non-pitch skill (a pickoff) would factor in to how good the pitcher is. But by Grant's breakdown it wouldn't, because the pitcher is not in the act of delivering the ball to the plate.

 

Using your logic, a pitcher with prime Ivan Rodriguez behind the plate is better at pitching because nobody steals bases. Maybe we'll figure it out some day, but if we can't quantify a pickoff move then don't pollute the award with uneducated opinions from stupid writers. Stick to the bare bones, which is pitching.

[o2cui2i]

Cameron included hitting in his NL Cy Young decision (which led to him to Bumgarner over Cole) .

 

 

that's kind of like picking a player who has had a good offensive year for golden glove or giving the incumbent more weight just because he won last year. it's a neanderthal way of thinking that MLB is rife with.

[burlingtonbandit]

Using your logic, a pitcher with prime Ivan Rodriguez behind the plate is better at pitching because nobody steals bases. Maybe we'll figure it out some day, but if we can't quantify a pickoff move then don't pollute the award with uneducated opinions from stupid writers. Stick to the bare bones, which is pitching.

 

Well then you have to give credit to a catcher for framing and that opens up another can of worms about pitching performance..

[Grant77]

Well then you have to give credit to a catcher for framing and that opens up another can of worms about pitching performance..

 

I suspect that sometime in the near future, framing will be added to catcher WAR and subtracted from pitcher WAR. When that time comes, I'll be happy to judge pitchers based on the new formula. To me, the best award is one that reduces variables and including catcher framing would do that.

 

We go to extreme lengths like that to come up with reliable DIPS and then we turn around and add in another unnecessary variable (defense) or two (hitting) back into the equation for the Cy Young Award. It makes no sense.

[burlingtonbandit]

I suspect that sometime in the near future, framing will be added to catcher WAR and subtracted from pitcher WAR. When that time comes, I'll be happy to judge pitchers based on the new formula. To me, the best award is one that reduces variables and including catcher framing would do that.

 

We go to extreme lengths like that to come up with reliable DIPS and then we turn around and add in another unnecessary variable (defense) or two (hitting) back into the equation for the Cy Young Award. It makes no sense.

 

I don't think you could ever come up with a formula that fully quantifies pitching skill. How do you measure game calling into that? Some catchers are better than others at calling a game but there really is way to quantify it.

 

I can't see catcher framing being included in WAR in the near future as it would be so difficult to track. BP might be the first since they already track catcher framing but I can't see FG doing it.

[TheHurl]

that's kind of like picking a player who has had a good offensive year for golden glove or giving the incumbent more weight just because he won last year. it's a neanderthal way of thinking that MLB is rife with.

 

he weighed it very lightly. I don't think it's wrong...it's best Pitcher. Why not judge them on everything they do? He also took the catchers for each into consideration (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/cy-young-voting-and-the-impact-of-a-catcher/)

[Grant77]

I don't think you could ever come up with a formula that fully quantifies pitching skill. How do you measure game calling into that? Some catchers are better than others at calling a game but there really is way to quantify it.

 

I can't see catcher framing being included in WAR in the near future as it would be so difficult to track. BP might be the first since they already track catcher framing but I can't see FG doing it.

 

I'm not sure it's possible either, but systematically ignoring the best DIPS that we have right now sure doesn't help in selecting the most deserving candidate. I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how it does.

 

Game calling is a collaborative effort (other than Buehrle), so I kind of disagree there, but that would be very hard to quantify indeed.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't pitch f/x contain all of the data necessary to assign a framing value to pitchers? I can't really speculate on who will do it and when, but the data seems to be available.

[Grant77]

he weighed it very lightly. I don't think it's wrong...it's best Pitcher. Why not judge them on everything they do? He also took the catchers for each into consideration (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/cy-young-voting-and-the-impact-of-a-catcher/)

 

That's why...

 

Overall performance is what the MVP is for, is it not?

[Cyborg]

I'm not sure it's possible either, but systematically ignoring the best DIPS that we have right now sure doesn't help in selecting the most deserving candidate. I've yet to see a convincing argument as to how it does.

 

Game calling is a collaborative effort (other than Buehrle), so I kind of disagree there, but that would be very hard to quantify indeed.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't pitch f/x contain all of the data necessary to assign a framing value to pitchers? I can't really speculate on who will do it and when, but the data seems to be available.

Done a long time ago. Gallardo is the best.

[Cyborg]

That's why...

 

Overall performance is what the MVP is for, is it not?

 

"The Cy Young Award is an annual award given to the best pitcher in each of the American and National Leagues"

 

This clearly means best person at beisbol who plays position pitcher.

[TheHurl]

That's why...

 

Overall performance is what the MVP is for, is it not?

 

Best pitcher does not mean best pitcher at pitching IMO.

[Grant77]

Best pitcher does not mean best pitcher at pitching IMO.

 

"The Hank Aaron Award is given annually to the Major League Baseball (MLB) players selected as the top hitter in each league"

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the Cy is a combined award for pitching and fielding then I'm curious what this award means to you.

[Laika]

No, pitching is what happens before the ball reaches the plate. Defense is what happens after the ball reaches the plate. It's not difficult to understand.

 

Pitching is the central aspect of run prevention, i.e. team defense.

[Grant77]

Pitching is the central aspect of run prevention, i.e. team defense.

 

That's a 20th century way of looking at it. We can quantify the impact of defense on pitching statistics quite well.

[burlingtonbandit]

Grant has backed himself into a corner too far to backtrack. He's pot committed at this point in his argument about pitching.

[Grant77]

Grant has backed himself into a corner too far to backtrack. He's pot committed at this point in his argument about pitching.

 

I've always held the belief that the Cy was for pitching and not fielding and it's completely subjective since there is no clear criteria.

 

Please don't turn a good baseball discussion into something else like the others do when they can't counter my points effectively. You brought up some good stuff about game calling and framing.

[Laika]

That's a 20th century way of looking at it. We can quantify the impact of defense on pitching statistics quite well.

 

It's really just semantics.

 

Defense in any sport is about preventing the other team from scoring. Pitching is about preventing the other team from scoring.

 

Also relevant is that in most years, voters basically separate the MVP and Cy Young awards, reserving the former for a position player. So in most normal seasons the Cy is basically an all things considered MVP type of award for pitchers - which one of them was the "best pitcher" - so it should be considered as such.

[Grant77]

It's really just semantics.

 

Defense in any sport is about preventing the other team from scoring. Pitching is about preventing the other team from scoring.

 

Also relevant is that in most years, voters basically separate the MVP and Cy Young awards, reserving the former for a position player. So in most normal seasons the Cy is basically an all things considered MVP type of award for pitchers - which one of them was the "best pitcher" - so it should be considered as such.

 

Pitchers shouldn't be considered for the MVP award if the Cy Young isn't going to be awarded to the player who is best at pitching. The fact that we're forced to use the Cy Young Award as something that it wasn't intended to be (pitcher MVP instead of best pitcher) just goes to show the inherent flaws in the voting system.

 

This is just my opinion, but I'd like to see the award based only on pitching. I think it's a unique skill that deserves recognition. Pitcher defense already gets recognized with the gold glove.

[Laika]

Nobody gives a s*** about gold gloves though.

 

The awards are all stupid anyway.

[TheHurl]

Nobody gives a s*** about gold gloves though.

 

The awards are all stupid anyway.

 

The entire MLB awards system is set up for debate ... It is the best marketing campaign they have

[Horses Fart]

Dan Shulman joins SportsNet crew for 2016. Edited November 19, 2015 by Horses Fart

[Pulk_Pull]

Dan Shulman joint SportsNet crew for 2016.

 

Barry Davis ‏@SNBarryDavis 4m4 minutes ago Florida, USA

Not only will @DShulman_ESPN join Buck and Pat for 30 games, he'll be heard on @FAN590 & still call Sunday night baseball and NCAAB on ESPN

[EMK19]

We need to get this Shohei Ohtani when he becomes available... Damn. 7 innings of 1 hit ball with 11k's vs the same team he faced a week ago, Korea. Funny thing is that they questionably took him out after the 7th even wich a decent pitch count and Korea came back in the 9th to upset Japan 4-3. But this Ohtani guy is so young yet with filthy fastball/splitter. Looking forward to seeing how this guy develops... Edited November 19, 2015 by EMK19

[JaysRap]

[Dr. Dinger]

 

OH GOD.

 

I would sell the farm for him. Osuna + Pompey +.

[GreekFatAss]

 

Funny how those attitude issues didn't bother them when he was making little money.

 

Loria gonna Loria

[burlingtonbandit]

Wonder if Fernandez would be more tame in the Jays clubhouse. Those reports out of Miami made him out to be one of the worst teammates in the sport and it got so bad to the point that teammates hoped he would fail. That act sure as hell wouldn't work in a clubhouse with Bautista, JD, Tulo and Martin.

[Captain Adama]

Wonder if Fernandez would be more tame in the Jays clubhouse. Those reports out of Miami made him out to be one of the worst teammates in the sport and it got so bad to the point that teammates hoped he would fail. That act sure as hell wouldn't work in a clubhouse with Bautista, JD, Tulo and Martin.

 

When he's that good, unless he's murdering people I couldn't care less about his attitude.

[burlingtonbandit]

When he's that good, unless he's murdering people I couldn't care less about his attitude.

 

As a fan yeah but players on his team don't think that way..