Friedman to the Dodgers.

[Abomination]

You are absolutely right that it all begins with ownership. Look at Billy Beane, there's a reason he's stayed in Oakland. Ownership lets him do what he wants. He was even given the luxury of no less than 5 consecutive .500 or less seasons right in the middle of his ten year tenure. You only get that kind of rope from an organization that cares as much about cost cutting as about the product on the field. Beane's no idiot, he realizes that there's a kind of freedom that comes with not having the pressure to win all the time and he ultimately turned down the Red Sox job because all he really he wanted from them was recognition not the actual situation. Trying to stretch every dollar in Oakland is a challenge he relishes and he's good at it. He works well with the limitations put on him and the trade off for those limitations is more than off set by the fact that he's given more freedom to make mistakes than probably any other GM. And it's not at all crazy to think he works better with a limited payroll than he would with a large one. Limitations stimulate creativity (necessity is the mother of invention and all that).

 

As for Friedman, we really know much less about him than we know about Beane. As has been pointed out, he's a finance guy and of a for all we know, his long term ambition may have nothing to do with sports or he may indeed want to stick with baseball but have a career that's more in the Pat Gillick mould where you preserve your legacy by bailing at the first sign of the downturn. Things have definitely gotten more difficult for the Rays since baseball has eliminated the compensation system that they gamed so well. Things like picking up roster players in the Price trade could help to prop up the window for a little while longer but it will be really hard to keep it going without the kind of MiLB depth that they used to have. The challenge for the new GM will be to refine the approach, find new loopholes if there are any, do more with less picks and try to avoid a drought period as adjustments are made.

 

I believe Beane was also given a minority share in the team or something, or a least a cut of profits. I think that might have more to do with him staying than the freedom.

[jaysfan2014]

i should expand on the above comment

 

with the Rays, Friedman was able to trade guys like Shields, Price, etc to maintain a steady flow of elite prospects. Rays ownership allowed this (encouraged?)

 

with the Jays, Friedman would not be permitted to trade Bautista, EE, or anyone else deemed too important to the fanbase by ownership. He may even be directed to give up prospects for Dickey.

 

the point is, the GM like every other working stiff takes direction from someone

 

Friedman is ballyhooed on here only because those he reports too allow him to follow an optimum team building approach. Many GMs would do the same if permitted

 

Rays ownership ordered the trades because the team can't draw flies, frequently 29th or 30th in attendance and basically only surviving on revenue sharing. If the Rays were in a better market, they would be able to afford to hang on Shields and Price. As payrolls continue to rise, it may become difficult for the Rays to sustain operations, even with revenue sharing.

[jaysfan2014]

I guess they're both "going nowhere", it's just that one is getting more value out of it's trip than the other.

 

At least the one team with a 21-year drought isn't threatened with relocation like the $77M budget one. Rays likely lost money last year at $77M payroll, even with TV money and revenue sharing, as the attendance was near the bottom of the game (Cleveland was worse.)

[Dick_Pole]

The funny thing is that the Expos were Canada's real team. The Jays merely swooped in on some of the Expos' TV rights when they were accepted into the league, beginning the slow death of baseball in Montreal.

 

That's a little extreme....if a city needs AN ENTIRE COUNTRY to support it to not have a slow death, perhaps a slow death is what needs to happen. 35M people and the second largest country by size. Certainly we can have two (or three) baseball teams without one pointing fingers at the other that its stealing its territory.

 

Based on the posts I have read from you on here, it sounds like you are from the Montreal area (or at least closer to Montreal than Toronto) and just really hate the Jays but cheer for them and follow them because they share the same country as you.

 

Perhaps you need to find another team to cheer for, because all you do is trash management and blame the Jays for your loss of the Expos. Sounds like no matter what they do, you would be negative towards them. Continuing to follow them is only going to give you ulcers if you hate them so much.

[KingKat]

Beane was given a 4% stake in the company, with no loss liability.

 

Do you know the timing of this?

[KingKat]

2009

 

Ah... O.K. That's WELL after he initially turned down Boston.

[Terminator]

That's just it, he's not that much different than 100's probably 1000's of guys that are just like him, and maybe it's just right place right time for him but he didn't get his job through typical baseball means. Even Billy Beane came through the player route. Friedman was just like me and you, a fan who happens to be really, really smart (should re-word that as I'm not that smart). I knew so many guys in the investment world who didn't know half what I did about sports but I paired up with them to win money betting sports or playing fantasy because they could do what Friedman does. So what makes Friedman special compared to these guys. He's not playing fantasy baseball with me; he became a GM of a baseball team...and a winning baseball team at that. I'm sure that Friedman has some bias...but it certainly isn't obvious. I respect that a lot. If I had Nox's brain I'd certainly be pursuing a career in baseball but I'm sure I'd still have some bias.

 

I 100% hope that Tampa gets back to their winning ways though. It would show (or should show) the world that Friedman wasn't the sole (or Soul for Jonn) reason that they won, but the system that was put in place works. Then maybe, just maybe a few more teams will hire guys I know are as smart as Friedman and others like him.

 

So you are devoted to him because he is relatable rather than because you think he is a unique talent? And you only see him as special in that he was the one lucky enough to get a GM job? That makes way more sense to me know.

[Terminator]

You are absolutely right that it all begins with ownership. Look at Billy Beane, there's a reason he's stayed in Oakland. Ownership lets him do what he wants. He was even given the luxury of no less than 5 consecutive .500 or less seasons right in the middle of his ten year tenure. You only get that kind of rope from an organization that cares as much about cost cutting as about the product on the field. Beane's no idiot, he realizes that there's a kind of freedom that comes with not having the pressure to win all the time and he ultimately turned down the Red Sox job because all he really he wanted from them was recognition not the actual situation. Trying to stretch every dollar in Oakland is a challenge he relishes and he's good at it. He works well with the limitations put on him and the trade off for those limitations is more than off set by the fact that he's given more freedom to make mistakes than probably any other GM. And it's not at all crazy to think he works better with a limited payroll than he would with a large one. Limitations stimulate creativity (necessity is the mother of invention and all that).

 

As for Friedman, we really know much less about him than we know about Beane. As has been pointed out, he's a finance guy and of a for all we know, his long term ambition may have nothing to do with sports or he may indeed want to stick with baseball but have a career that's more in the Pat Gillick mould where you preserve your legacy by bailing at the first sign of the downturn. Things have definitely gotten more difficult for the Rays since baseball has eliminated the compensation system that they gamed so well. Things like picking up roster players in the Price trade could help to prop up the window for a little while longer but it will be really hard to keep it going without the kind of MiLB depth that they used to have. The challenge for the new GM will be to refine the approach, find new loopholes if there are any, do more with less picks and try to avoid a drought period as adjustments are made.

 

Ownership letting a GM doing what it wants was not the point of my post.

 

Ownership deciding that they want to employ a modern team building philosophy is my point. The Rays are who they are because ownership employs a modern team building approach. The Jays are who they are because Rogers employs whatever-the-hell style you'd call it to build the team. Like I said before, and Hurl agreed with, there are hundreds of Friedman's out there. The most important front office decision is to find one and hire them.

 

As for Billy Beane, he, like Friedman, is another example of someone who is treated as a demigod and it's simply unwarranted. He's not a genius, he's just someone who embraces the right way to build a team.

[KingKat]

Ownership letting a GM doing what it wants was not the point of my post.

 

Ownership deciding that they want to employ a modern team building philosophy is my point. The Rays are who they are because ownership employs a modern team building approach. The Jays are who they are because Rogers employs whatever-the-hell style you'd call it to build the team. Like I said before, and Hurl agreed with, there are hundreds of Friedman's out there. The most important front office decision is to find one and hire them.

 

As for Billy Beane, he, like Friedman, is another example of someone who is treated as a demigod and it's simply unwarranted. He's not a genius, he's just someone who embraces the right way to build a team.

 

I wasn't trying to re-write your post. I was just agreeing with you that ownership is super important and then I went on my own tangent about the subject of ownership.

[Terminator]

I wasn't trying to re-write your post. I was just agreeing with you that ownership is super important and then I went on my own tangent about the subject of ownership.

 

Oh ok I understand now.

[KingKat]

Oh ok I understand now.

 

Yeah I guess in re-reading my post, I make it sound like all ownership does is give Beane the keys to the car and there's obviously more to it than that. Oakland didn't become a progressive organization the day Beane walked in the door (like Moneyball might make you believe). They won't stop being a progressive organization the day he leaves either.

[jaysfan2014]

If Friedman's job was to cheap out and make the team unwatchable and unprofitable ... He was a success. Modern team building.

 

Especially a team that ranks at the bottom in runs scored and basically drives fans away.. people want big hitters or at least a more consistent offense.. Pitching is great, but it doesn't mean a thing when they can't hit. Even the Royals, who don't hit many HRs, manage to find ways to score with speed and putting the ball in play, which is why they're going to the World Series, and the Rays are in a downward spiral.

[KingKat]

If Friedman's job was to cheap out and make the team unwatchable and unprofitable ... He was a success. Modern team building.

 

Do you equate keeping costs in line with revenues with cheaping out?

[GD]

Hopefully. I'd hop on the Expos 2.0 bandwagon so fast, the Jays would neither care nor miss you.

 

ftfy

[TheHurl]

"The Following User Says Thank You to Moogy For This Useful Post:

jaysfan2014 (Today)"

 

Things keep piling on Moogy these days.

[KingKat]

No.

 

Well since it's been established that the Rays are a lowest revenue team, I don't really understand how Friedman could be excused of cheaping out.

[KingKat]

Accused, rather than excused, I'm assuming? He cheaped out, brought little interest to the team, even while winning, and got himself in a vicious loop of having to continue cheaping out because he couldn't generate revenue.

 

Believe it or not, teams are in this to make money. Yes, winning is the primary driver of this ... but not the only thing (as we can obviously see). You can win 20 World Series in a row, and at the end of it, if you're broke, you failed at your job. PE-world strip and dump doesn't work too well in the world of baseball entertainment consumers. But like he learned to do with acquired companies, he polished the turd, and sold off his product with a huge amount of "debt" (figuratively speaking here) which will take them under. Here, the product was himself.

 

The polishing turds philosophy was really more what the previous Rays brains trust was about. Fierce penny-pinching to monetize assets was their m.o. and they tried to apply it to baseball with disastrous results. I'd recommend reading the Extra 2% for more on the topic.

[KingKat]

Unnecessary. I'm fully aware of the Rays' story ... and their strategies. Current (and now former) Rays' brass forgot they were selling a product.

 

Your loss.

[Terminator]

Interesting article on some of the poor character guys Friedman has signed. I forgot about Willy Aybar. After the Ray Rice incident something like that wouldn't fly today.

 

https://sports.vice.com/article/moneyball-or-sleazeball-andrew-friedman-and-the-future-of-the-dodgers?utm_vicesportstwitter

[DavyJones]

Friedman with a payroll? Oh dear. Glad he's gone from TB.

[jays4life19]

OCTOBER 24: Friedman will earn a record-setting $35MM over a five-year term, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports via Twitter. The contract also includes incentive mechanisms, per Olney.

 

 

Damn that's a nice contract for Friedman.

[Terminator]

OCTOBER 24: Friedman will earn a record-setting $35MM over a five-year term, ESPN.com’s Buster Olney reports via Twitter. The contract also includes incentive mechanisms, per Olney.

 

 

Damn that's a nice contract for Friedman.

 

That's not the worst deal they've given out but that's A LOT of money for a GM.

[Chappy]

That's not the worst deal they've given out but that's A LOT of money for a GM.

 

It makes sense to compensate the guys who can identify the right talent well though. Friedman has a great track record and did more for the Rays than probably any other GM could have.

[dineke]

Give a good gm 100 mil, I don't care. I'd trade bautista for Friedman in a second.

[Terminator]

It makes sense to compensate the guys who can identify the right talent well though. Friedman has a great track record and did more for the Rays than probably any other GM could have.

 

It does make some sense and they've got a ton of money to spend so why not.

 

But my point is that the cult of the GM is just way too overblown. There are 1000's of people out there who could be really good GM's.

[Terminator]

Give a good gm 100 mil, I don't care. I'd trade bautista for Friedman in a second.

 

That's ridiculous.

[Chappy]

It does make some sense and they've got a ton of money to spend so why not.

 

But my point is that the cult of the GM is just way too overblown. There are 1000's of people out there who could be really good GM's.

 

Sure there are but why go through trial and error when you can just pay one of the best and be done with it. If they were a smaller org than sure, but they can afford it and considering how much they invest into the team, this is peanuts.