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Goins, Kawasaki or Tolleson

Iluvbjs

By Iluvbjs
in Toronto Blue Jays Talk

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Iluvbjs

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Posted
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Seriously wondering what people think.

 

My position is that this team doesn't depend on 2b for offense, and they don't get much from any of the three. goins is flat out worlds superior defensively than either guy.

 

The runs that Goins saves with his defense, are they outweighed by the offensive output that kawasaki or Tolleson give you over Goins? Over a full season, I don't think either guy gives you anything significant over Goins. None of the three are even what you would consider an "average" MLB hitter. Kawasaki definitely is great for the clubhouse.

 

To me, Goins is your starting second baseman. If everyone played defense like him, our team would be miles and miles better. He saves our team outs, which is just as important as a catcher who can frame 3rd strike calls. The runs he saves is more than the difference of his inferior offensive output to either player.

reedjohnsonfan Dunedin Blue Jays

reedjohnsonfan

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Posted
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Kawasaki but not everyday.

 

He's actually looked good so far. Doubt he'll keep it up but he at least gives good ABs, can hit to all fields and can handle the bat. Not a bad player to have around.

CHRIS FCL Blue Jays

CHRIS

Verified Member
Posted
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Bad karma if the Jays send Kawasaki back down. Didn't they go into the toilet last season when they sent him down when Reyes returned?

 

Think about it. #science

Jimcanuck Buffalo Bisons

Jimcanuck

Old-Timey Member
Posted
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I don't know why I am responding to the is but Kawa against RHP and Tolleson against LHP.. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

This

 

Goins better defender but not better enough to make up for at the plate uselessness

KingKat All-Star

KingKat

Old-Timey Member
Posted
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I don't know why I am responding to the is but Kawa against RHP and Tolleson against LHP.. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

They make a good platoon because they both have enough versatility to be useful on days where they don't start.

Iluvbjs College Ball

Iluvbjs

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He seems to be learning at the plate though and hitting the ball a little harder. The only reason I'd even consider Kawsaki is his value in the clubhouse and to the fans. But Goins is flat out the best defender and anybody who thinks he belongs in double A needs to get themselves checked out for.......nevermind. Goins defense is a plus 2 WAR and over a full season, most likely more. The difference between Kawasaki's and Goins offensive WAR is less than 1. Defense wins games and pennants in the long run along with good pitching. Guys like Goins who turn DP's better than just about anyone else makes your pitching better.

 

Unless we;'re depending on offense from that position, I still think it's automatically Goins.

Deadpool Buffalo Bisons

Deadpool

Old-Timey Member
Posted
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He seems to be learning at the plate though and hitting the ball a little harder. The only reason I'd even consider Kawsaki is his value in the clubhouse and to the fans. But Goins is flat out the best defender and anybody who thinks he belongs in double A needs to get themselves checked out for.......nevermind. Goins defense is a plus 2 WAR and over a full season, most likely more. The difference between Kawasaki's and Goins offensive WAR is less than 1. Defense wins games and pennants in the long run along with good pitching. Guys like Goins who turn DP's better than just about anyone else makes your pitching better.

 

Unless we;'re depending on offense from that position, I still think it's automatically Goins.

 

What you're doing is mentally comparing Goins to nobody at 2B. Yes, defensively, Goins is better than Kawasaki but not THAT much better. Maybe 1 play today he made that Kawasaki couldn't have made, MAYBE. And he's a functional black hole with the bat. We might as well just let our pitcher bat and use the DH instead of our second baseman when he's in the line-up, he's basically that bad.

HERPDERP Vancouver Canadians

HERPDERP

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
What you're doing is mentally comparing Goins to nobody at 2B. Yes, defensively, Goins is better than Kawasaki but not THAT much better. Maybe 1 play today he made that Kawasaki couldn't have made, MAYBE. And he's a functional black hole with the bat. We might as well just let our pitcher bat and use the DH instead of our second baseman when he's in the line-up, he's basically that bad.

 

From what I hear Kawasaki is average at 2B and Goins is really good. What Kawa has an advantage is his versatility.

Jimcanuck Buffalo Bisons

Jimcanuck

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
From what I hear Kawasaki is average at 2B and Goins is really good. What Kawa has an advantage is his versatility.

 

Goins played some SS and 3B for the Jays last year I believe

Governator Vancouver Canadians

Governator

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted
Why only 1? Kawasaki & Tolleson platooning is a much better option over Goins every day, any day. They both can play a variety of positions and Kawasaki's defense is very good and not worlds behind Goins.
HERPDERP Vancouver Canadians

HERPDERP

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Why only 1? Kawasaki & Tolleson platooning is a much better option over Goins every day, any day. They both can play a variety of positions and Kawasaki's defense is very good and not worlds behind Goins.

 

It's good, not very good.

 

You don't get a 'very good' when your nick name is Noodlearm.

Governator Vancouver Canadians

Governator

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted
It's good, not very good.

 

You don't get a 'very good' when your nick name is Noodlearm.

 

Call it what you want, I'll take 'good' d + average at bats over excellent d + a bag of sand for offense.

Deadpool Buffalo Bisons

Deadpool

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
It's good, not very good.

 

You don't get a 'very good' when your nick name is Noodlearm.

 

Pretty sure that's a racist joke, not an accurate description.

burlingtonbandit New Hampshire Fisher Cats

burlingtonbandit

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

I hate the defence wins championships argument. Big load of ********. Ortiz is a great hitter and useless defensively. Defence wins you nothing if you don't have competent hitting or pitching. Out of the 3 defence is probably the one that you can get by on not having.

 

A great pitcher can shut down an offence. A great defence is useless if a pitcher gives up a homerun.

eastcoastjaysfan Dunedin Blue Jays

eastcoastjaysfan

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I hate the defence wins championships argument. Big load of ********. Ortiz is a great hitter and useless defensively. Defence wins you nothing if you don't have competent hitting or pitching. Out of the 3 defence is probably the one that you can get by on not having.

 

A great pitcher can shut down an offence. A great defence is useless if a pitcher gives up a homerun.

 

Flawless logic.

Jimcanuck Buffalo Bisons

Jimcanuck

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

in any event, if you are gonna have a great glove, s***** bat player in the lineup, you want it at SS

 

can Reyes move to 2B already? its not like he's gonna get better in the field

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