Bonifacio DFA = LOL

[GD]

TZ didn't like him, but neither did UZR or DRS in his last three years when it was available.

 

That was the twilight of his career, though. His defense couldn't have been what it used to be.

[Jimcanuck]

I wasn't aware Alomar was a SS.

 

Vizquel was mostly at 2B for his career

 

Edit: s***, my bad. Getting old

[GD]

at the time the debate over best defensive shortstop was between Vizquel and Alomar..... most will say Vizquel was better, but not by much.... and Vizquel is considered one of the best defensive 2B ever

 

Yeahhh you probably should have proof read this just a little.

[Abomination]

Alomar was flashy, spectacular and had plenty of range. He was also smooth like butter and had brilliant hands which I believe if I recall correctly were from his dad forcing him to learn to field grounders with a piece of flat cardboard instead of a glove. It's been 20 years and I've seen nothing close defensively at 2b since. His defence rating was not built on spectacular plays, he did everything with perfection. Even his relays home from the outfield were brilliant.

 

People also have to remember that Alomar was pretty much literally playing on carpet. Ground balls would shoot through the infield like a bat out of hell, so I have no doubt that defensive metrics wouldn't like him as much. Even today I think our infielder's metrics are affected a little by the turf (which I don't think they take into account), and the stuff we have now isn't even close to comparing with the old carpet.

[Abomination]

People also have to remember that Alomar was pretty much literally playing on carpet. Ground balls would shoot through the infield like a bat out of hell, so I have no doubt that defensive metrics wouldn't like him as much. Even today I think our infielder's metrics are affected a little by the turf (which I don't think they take into account), and the stuff we have now isn't even close to comparing with the old carpet.

 

I should also mention that not all grass is equal either. Some stadiums keep the grass longer and some shorter, which affects how much the ball slows down before it gets to the infielders. What we need is FieldFX, and the sooner the better.

[Dick_Pole]

My apologies for quoting the other board:

 

To:Frag

2/2/13

88661.66

Reply to 88661.57

 

 

 

 

georgia_peach

georgia_peach

Posts:6901

 

The problem with Alomar is, he's like Jim Edmonds and the frequency of their involvement in highlight-reel plays. Many remember those two as defensive gods. But really, if someone is making highlight-reel plays all the time, is it something to be proud of? To me all those plays look great vsually, but with all the defensive scouting reports available and the defensive player's memory of what particular hitters tendencies are to me says that Edmonds and Alomar weren't in a good position to begin with.

 

Who knows, maybe Alomar was a showboat, played out of position on purpose creating those "special" plays we all remember.

 

Heck look at Cal Ripken's FG FLD numbers.....off the charts. Ripken rarely made flashy plays, but was uncannily in the right place on most plays. I remember hearing this multiple times on TV broadcasts about Ripken working tirelessly in practice on positioning.

 

That argument is f***ing ridiculous. Because they made some spectacular plays occasionally that means they played out of position? Ok I guess now in the advanced age of scouting reports teams should put out foosball figurines in the field positioned just right because every hitter is going to hit it to that exact spot EVERY time.

 

I mean, Alomar dives and gets to a ball 30 feet from the plane of the 1B bag so I guess next time he should have had played that hitter with a David Ortiz shift to eliminate the need to make that spectacular play...

 

I swear just because someone can look at some numbers on a screen about defensive metrics doesn't mean they are immune from facetious reasoning. Having good range does not imply you play out of position. This Ripken vs Alomar argument implies such.

[TBJ12]

video shows Alomar making a few defensive gems, also shows him using a the jump throw more often than Jeter.

[TheHurl]

at the time the debate over best defensive shortstop was between Vizquel and Alomar..... most will say Vizquel was better, but not by much.... and Vizquel is considered one of the best defensive 2B ever

 

at the plate and on the basepaths, it was no contest - Alomar was the best offensive 2B in the game for many years

 

a rare 5 tool 2B

 

So much has changed since I started watching ball. We almost never saw west coast teams on TV (except the Dodgers that would dominate the Saturday broadcasts) and even the Jays and Expos were only on TV about 50% of their games. So we'd end up forming our opinion based off of announcers (and trust me they haven't got worse, they lacked knowledge just as much or more than they do today). I remember getting into an argument in the 80's with a Yankees fan who said that Randolph was the best defensive 2B. I laughed him off stating that he's never even won a gold glove. Instead I argued for Ryno, Whitaker or Frank White. The thing is that we didn't watch too much of these guys and when you hear people talking now about the most underrated defender through an era that was full of great defensive 2B's...Randolph is almost always mentioned. Are the stats skewing our opinions or are the stats off? Unless we are watching video of all of their plays we'll truly never know. However I have to say that I can't think of one other player from the 80's and 90's that I considered a great fielder that scores poorly on the metrics. Really only Alomar!

[GeorgiaPeach]

That argument is f***ing ridiculous. Because they made some spectacular plays occasionally that means they played out of position? Ok I guess now in the advanced age of scouting reports teams should put out foosball figurines in the field positioned just right because every hitter is going to hit it to that exact spot EVERY time."

 

Players with legendary defensive skills playing out of position isn't non-existent. Tris Speaker and Andruw Jones were known to play out of position all the time. So its not out of the realm for players to play out of position. Mark Belanger would take odd routes to grounders so he could make the play without diving because he felt diving was less efficient at making the play.

 

And as for fielders positioning now with advanced metrics and where they're to play. The hit charts are showing the areas where the fielders should play. And with hitters becoming more and more susceptible to the K, you just know being a spray hitter is a dying art and more and more pull shifts will become evident to viewers/fans. But just because a manager instructs a player to specifically play in a particular spot, sometimes the player plays where he feels comfortable playing it.

 

 

 

I mean, Alomar dives and gets to a ball 30 feet from the plane of the 1B bag so I guess next time he should have had played that hitter with a David Ortiz shift to eliminate the need to make that spectacular play...

 

And just think with HC's like Dwayne Murphy & Cito, loved by all on here, the hitter would continue hitting into the shift no matter how many players were on the pull side of the field.

 

I swear just because someone can look at some numbers on a screen about defensive metrics doesn't mean they are immune from facetious reasoning. Having good range does not imply you play out of position. This Ripken vs Alomar argument implies such.

 

All I'm getting at is for people to stop using stats when they matter for their little argument and then when a situation occurs that goes against the stats they use, they reference something else......its f***ing lame.

Edited February 2, 2014 by GeorgiaPeach

[SAAviour]

I don't think jfas is arguining that Alomar was a bad defender....I think he is saying he never got to see him and the defensive #s show he wasn't a good defender. He's just is going off what he sees now. Nothing wrong with that, he's just stating it.

[gruber92]

Are there people on here that are seriously doubting Alomar's defensive skills?

 

HOLY f***

[G-Snarls]

They didn't have teams of people watching plays to help create defensive stats back then. It's ridiculous to question Alomar's defense.

[Muck Bartinez]

Is it really surprising? Most people who post here weren't even 10 years old when Alomar left Toronto, so all they can rely go on is the statistics (unreliable) and first-hand accounts (very unreliable. see: Jeter, Derek). It wouldn't really be honest for people in that age group to have a strong opinion either way.

 

Yes but I remember Jeter diving into the crowd and making a nice grab, Alomar catching a flare deep behind first base, and Delmon Young throwing someone out trying to stretch a single to a double; therefore they are all spectacular fielders.

 

/thread

[Boxcar]

People also have to remember that Alomar was pretty much literally playing on carpet. Ground balls would shoot through the infield like a bat out of hell, so I have no doubt that defensive metrics wouldn't like him as much. Even today I think our infielder's metrics are affected a little by the turf (which I don't think they take into account), and the stuff we have now isn't even close to comparing with the old carpet.

 

The numbers seem to support that theory, but even after Toronto his defensive metrics were mostly just above average.

[Boxcar]

Is it really surprising? Most people who post here weren't even 10 years old when Alomar left Toronto, so all they can rely go on is the statistics (unreliable) and first-hand accounts (very unreliable. see: Jeter, Derek). It wouldn't really be honest for people in that age group to have a strong opinion either way.

 

People just hate questioning their own beliefs. By now, it's so ingrained that Alomar was like a cyborg 2B and merely not embracing it fully is an affront to some people.

[Dick_Pole]

 

All I'm getting at is for people to stop using stats when they matter for their little argument and then when a situation occurs that goes against the stats they use, they reference something else......its f***ing lame.

 

I agree with you 100%.

 

And just think with HC's like Dwayne Murphy & Cito, loved by all on here, the hitter would continue hitting into the shift no matter how many players were on the pull side of the field.

 

And so did Ted Williams

[G-Snarls]

Fangraphs

 

The Suddenly Popular Emilio Bonifacio

 

by Mike Petriello - February 3, 2014

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-suddenly-popular-emilio-bonifacio/

[Angrioter]

ChrisCotillo

#Royals have placed Emilio Bonifacio on unconditional release waivers. He will have 48 hours to be claimed.

[G-Snarls]

ChrisCotillo

#Royals have placed Emilio Bonifacio on unconditional release waivers. He will have 48 hours to be claimed.

 

Wow. What the f*** were they doing? Bought low on him for a few hundred grand. he played decently for them. They agreed to a 1 year deal. now just gone?

[Angrioter]

Elboni_1

Es mejor viajar lleno de esperanza , que viajar sin ella. #loviste!!!

[G-Snarls]

Elboni_1

Es mejor viajar lleno de esperanza , que viajar sin ella. #loviste!!!

 

Don't post stuff in Spanish without translating. You know we're always going to ask you what it says.

[Angrioter]

Don't post stuff in Spanish without translating. You know we're always going to ask you what it says.

 

It's better travel full of hope than travel without it. # Loviste!

more or less!!

[G-Snarls]

The one-year deal wasn't 100% guaranteed because it was arbitration-avoiding. The Royals will only have to pay a very small portion of that contract.

 

Remember a couple years ago when the Jays declined Rajai's option and then signed him to a one-year deal at a very similar amount? It was so they could cut him easily if they needed his roster spot... which is what happened here.

 

The Royals deserve credit for not caring about Boni's small-sample success after the trade.

 

Oh I didn't know it wasn't guaranteed.

 

Why didn't we do the same with Arencibia? Situations were pretty much identical.

[NorthOf49]

Oh I didn't know it wasn't guaranteed.

 

Why didn't we do the same with Arencibia? Situations were pretty much identical.

Maybe we were very close to agreeing with Navarro so it would've been unnecessary?

[G-Snarls]

Maybe we were very close to agreeing with Navarro so it would've been unnecessary?

 

Actually yeah probably

 

Also AA must have realized by the arb filing deadline that JP had zero trade value. Extending things with a 1 year deal and a DFA to make room on the roster after signing Navarro just to buy more time wouldn't likely have changed that.

[KingKat]

Actually yeah probably

 

Also AA must have realized by the arb filing deadline that JP had zero trade value. Extending things with a 1 year deal and a DFA to make room on the roster after signing Navarro just to buy more time wouldn't likely have changed that.

 

Yep. AA made a simple Navarro versus JPA choice. Maybe he extends JPA if Navarro doesn't sign but not with Navarro in the pocket. It's no coincidence that Navarro was signed when he was. I'd suspect AA was probably fairly confident he would acquire Kratz as well. JPA was a lot more durable than Navarro is likely to be but Kratz helps to offset that.

Edited February 10, 2014 by KingKat

[G-Snarls]

Kratz is no replacement backup either. He can frame with some of the best, and hit lefties.

 

Here's hoping Gibby can make the most of Navarro/Thole/Kratz with respect to handling the pitching staff and providing some offensive contributions. That's no small task.

[KingKat]

Here's hoping Gibby can make the most of Navarro/Thole/Kratz with respect to handling the pitching staff and providing some offensive contributions. That's no small task.

 

Gibby is really good with the platoon split so it will really come down to how AA manages the roster rather than Gibby. The fact that Kratz has options and that AA wants to field a huge bullpen to protect a bunch of guys who don't, probably means Kratz gets held back as an injury reserve which isn't ideal.

[derp.]

I am to lazy to go back and see if anyone wrote this but what do you guys feel about Bonifacio coming off out bench this year?....

[G-Snarls]

I am to lazy to go back and see if anyone wrote this but what do you guys feel about Bonifacio coming off out bench this year?....

 

As long as it's not OUR bench, I'm good with it