The one and only Masahiro Tanaka posting and bidding thread

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Your attacks on this forum have gotten old real fast. Everybody gets that you do not have the same opinions as the rest of us, it's not "funny". It's a discussion forum, people are here to discuss the various views and opinions they have on different topics. There is a good reason why you have been banned twice, it's apparent that you haven't learned your lesson from either banning.

 

Seriously, all I can do is report you because it is your reply that creates arguments. Again and again. Tired of your immaturity that seems to never run out. What I stated is entirely accurate, there have been hundreds of posts questioning our pitchers and touting the National League guys I listed. The fact that you don't like this point is entirely immaterial. And your thoughts on banning, well I have my own thoughts on whether guys your age should be allowed to post at all but its not a baseball topic so mind your own business and grow up kid.

 

Find somebody else to harrass.

 

Read what I posted again. If that is an attack then you have serious problems.

[TheHurl]

Mark Buehrle, career:

 

1st half = 3.71 ERA

2nd half = 4.11 ERA

 

Notorious slow starts.

 

That swung quite a bit last year.

[Abomination]

That swung quite a bit last year.

 

In his career, Buehrle's March/April numbers aren't too good. May and June kind of make up for it and push that first half ERA down a lot. There's so much variance though that I'm not sure it really means much.

[TheHurl]

I'm noting what supposed experts have said publically, so if its wrong so be it. What are his April and May numbers.

 

Historically he's been a good May through July pitcher. By ERA

 

M/A 4.23

May 3.39

June 3.65

July 3.71

August 4.07

September 4.30

 

My biggest knock on Buehrle as a first half vs. second half pitcher was that in his career he averaged 6.67 innings per game and just 6.0 in the second (with weaker numbers of course). Last year he wasn't overpitched early (because of how bad he was) and for the first time in 5 years (and for just the second time in his career) he pitched better in the second half.

[Abomination]

My biggest knock on Buehrle as a first half vs. second half pitcher was that in his career he averaged 6.67 innings per game and just 6.0 in the second (with weaker numbers of course). Last year he wasn't overpitched early (because of how bad he was) and for the first time in 5 years (and for just the second time in his career) he pitched better in the second half.

 

I wonder how much it has to do with workload, and how much is due to teams getting several looks at him by the time the second half rolls around. I remember when Marcum was here, by the third or fourth time he faced them in a season they stopped chasing the changeup.

[GD]

He probably can't be counted on to throw 70 quality innings in AAA right now

 

Lol what makes you say that? He f***ed up AA pretty well.

[connorp]

Lol what makes you say that? He f***ed up AA pretty well.

 

Idk.. Im not big on him either. You pitch strikes in the minors you can expect some reasonable success.. But sitting 89-90 in your prime without an arsenal.. I dont see him having a career much better than say Brad Mills in the bigs

 

Anyways, i dont think its good for your team if hes a Top 5 prospect

[TheHurl]

That's simply not true. Nolin can step in and pitch 70 quality innings in the majors next year? No. IF he develops he MIGHT be able to do so. He probably can't be counted on to throw 70 quality innings in AAA right now, let alone MLB. They hope he can throw those innings in AAA next year, so that he might be a back end option in 2015, but that's wishful thinking at this point. He's not depth. Drabek hasn't pitched even near acceptably in the majors ... he was a disaster. And now he's coming off another arm injury. He's not depth. And so on. Heck, one of those guys is going to be a major league starter, if no pitching is acquired, so they're not "depth."

 

The guy who originally made the list actually wanted to get rid of Buehrle, which is insane.

 

But what you have now is really no different than prior years. A bunch of guesses. If you have to rely on these guys, most likely what would happen is you'd have to go through a bunch of them until at some point, one of them puts together a reasonable stretch (like Redmond last year). Of course, at that point, the damage is already done. That's not depth. That's churning through bad/underdeveloped pitchers looking to catch lightning. Maybe Redmond is just a late bloomer or a guy who's been overlooked, and he can be somewhat counted on to give you a stretch of reasonable innings should a starter go down or struggle ... or maybe he's just a AAAA guy who will get smoked and give you 7 starts of 5.50 ERA-level performance before you're forced to call up Nolin, who then gets smoked in 3 starts before being demoted ... and so on.

 

Lefty deception pitchers often have great starts to their career. He doesn't walk a lot of batters and considering he's not a GB pitcher he hasn't given up that many HR's which means that he's inducing a lot of weak contact. Long term I think Nolin has to up the GB rate to be successful in Toronto...but first few looks at him I really think teams will struggle against him.

[TheHurl]

Idk.. Im not big on him either. You pitch strikes in the minors you can expect some reasonable success.. But sitting 89-90 in your prime without an arsenal.. I dont see him having a career much better than say Brad Mills in the bigs

 

Anyways, i dont think its good for your team if hes a Top 5 prospect

 

Travis Wood is the ultimate comparison for him. Anyone remember his rookie season? He struggled in season two and now has settled in by throwing a shitload of cutters (and sliders instead of the curve). Long term I think Nolin will have to develop a pitch to replace the four seam/two seam combo he throws now, but I think he can rely on what he has short term.

[xposbrad]

Samardzija would be a huge upgrade to this pitching staff

 

He's still like a #3 on a good pitching staff. This team needs a true young ace, a #1 or #2 guy, no point in acquiring Samardzija, since Buerhle is the #3 guy and they aren't going to be able to trade him without sending some cash the other way, in other words, he's staying.

[connorp]

Travis Wood is the ultimate comparison for him. Anyone remember his rookie season? He struggled in season two and now has settled in by throwing a shitload of cutters (and sliders instead of the curve). Long term I think Nolin will have to develop a pitch to replace the four seam/two seam combo he throws now, but I think he can rely on what he has short term.

 

I concede i dont know much beyond the basic skill set, which im not a fan of and the odds would prob side with me.. But as Jay fan i hope theres something he can do to separate himself from the Joe Schmoes' with ho-hum stuff

[L54]

I'm not against acquiring him. If the price was Sanchez + a lesser piece I think it would be worth it. Realistically, if Sanchez became what Shark is, most people would be ecstatic. He shouldn't be considered depth either, as the only innings he should throw would be in September. Keep Stroman, he's viable depth.

 

Dickey

Shark

Morrow

Mark

Happ

 

 

Stroman

Hutch

Rogers

 

It's realistic, and about as best as we're going to do IMO.

[Abomination]

Travis Wood is the ultimate comparison for him. Anyone remember his rookie season? He struggled in season two and now has settled in by throwing a shitload of cutters (and sliders instead of the curve). Long term I think Nolin will have to develop a pitch to replace the four seam/two seam combo he throws now, but I think he can rely on what he has short term.

 

I wonder if Happ might be a better comparison for Wood.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I'm not against acquiring him. If the price was Sanchez + a lesser piece I think it would be worth it. Realistically, if Sanchez became what Shark is, most people would be ecstatic. He shouldn't be considered depth either, as the only innings he should throw would be in September. Keep Stroman, he's viable depth.

 

Dickey

Shark

Morrow

Mark

Happ

 

 

Stroman

Hutch

Rogers

 

It's realistic, and about as best as we're going to do IMO.

 

The Jays aren't contending for the playoffs this year unless subsequent, significant moves are made on top of Samardzija, so why on earth are we talking about moving Sanchez for Samardzija?

[GD]

And then posted a 13:10 K:BB in 3 starts (17.1 IP) in AAA and, of course, pooped himself in his ill-thought-out MLB debut. Obviously, SSS and all that, but that's what there is, and speaks to my point. SSS at more competitive levels. Guys without top-notch stuff often struggle to transition to new levels, especially the higher levels. Let him prove he can adjust to AAA hitters before thinking about anointing him as MLB depth (and let him prove he can adjust to MLB level hitters before you anoint him MLB depth, as well.) At these levels, with his stuff, he's a "show me" pitcher, in that you believe he can do it when he actually does it ... you can't just assume he'll transition reasonably well.

 

To pretty much the entirety of your post:

 

[xposbrad]

So because on a good staff shark would be #3 so there's no point getting him because we have MB at #3?? That's bizzare..also this is not a good staff so he would be the #1

 

I'll explain more why it makes no sense for this club to go after him. He has team control for 2 more years and is still arb eligible until then. Having him next year, does not make this a playoff team. You can't just acquire a huge quantity of starting pitchers. Teams build rotations based on slots, and who is their ace, #2, #3, #4, #5 guy + depth. So, this team would still need a #1 guy even if they acquired him which is not going to happen considering the money that he will be making and the rest of the staff.

 

Like I said, he's a #3, and we have Buerhle as our #3. We are looking for a pitcher to slot in at #1. I know he'd improve the staff, and if we didn't have Buerhle I would definitely go after him AND a #1 guy. But, this club HAS Buerhle for the 3 slot.

[xposbrad]

The Jays aren't contending for the playoffs this year unless subsequent, significant moves are made on top of Samardzija, so why on earth are we talking about moving Sanchez for Samardzija?

 

Exactly

[connorp]

I wonder if Happ might be a better comparison for Wood.

 

Im not even big making comparisons unless there is precise reasons to do so. Its like if a guy coming up has ho-hum stuff but good control, people used to be like "look at Greg Maddux".. I mean.. Maybe a guy succeeds like that but what about the 50 that dont?

 

I think you need to look at the skill set..soft tossing lefty in his prime..nothing notable in his secondary stuff..and make a realistic projection from that.. If he loses 1 or 2mph in year or two hes total s***

 

But if theres something to the whole deception thing..idk..i havent seen him pitch to know what else he brings to the table outside the skill set.

 

Honestly i was much more excited about Cecil coming up. Not that i thought Cecil was special..just maybe not a non-guy

[Abomination]

I'll explain more why it makes no sense for this club to go after him. He has team control for 2 more years and is still arb eligible until then. Having him next year, does not make this a playoff team. You can't just acquire a huge quantity of starting pitchers. Teams build rotations based on slots, and who is their ace, #2, #3, #4, #5 guy + depth. So, this team would still need a #1 guy even if they acquired him which is not going to happen considering the money that he will be making and the rest of the staff.

 

Like I said, he's a #3, and we have Buerhle as our #3. We are looking for a pitcher to slot in at #1. I know he'd improve the staff, and if we didn't have Buerhle I would definitely go after him AND a #1 guy. But, this club HAS Buerhle for the 3 slot.

 

Any team that tries to build a staff with that kind of system deserves to lose. You look to improve your club any way you can. If that means having 5 #3 caliber guys, then so be it. If those 5 guys put up the same WAR as a traditional #1 to #5 staff, you're fine (at least in terms of making the playoffs).

 

It would almost be like a team passing up on Votto in order to get someone like Dunn, Alvarez, or Trumbo because they want the extra home runs in the middle of their order.

[connorp]

Exactly

 

I think most people want Samar to come with extension. Personally even if Jays got an option added for a 3rd year, i would do it. Thats 3 years at a good price. As someone mentioned, we would all be content if Sanchez became like Samar in three years..theres also the chance he washes out.

[xposbrad]

Any team that tries to build a staff with that kind of system deserves to lose. You look to improve your club any way you can. If that means having 5 #3 caliber guys, then so be it. If those 5 guys put up the same WAR as a traditional #1 to #5 staff, you're fine (at least in terms of making the playoffs).

 

It would almost be like a team passing up on Votto in order to get someone like Dunn, Alvarez, or Trumbo because they want the extra home runs in the middle of their order.

 

Not really, this club has financial constraints. Shark doesn't make this a playoff team, and you prevent this club from going after going a #1 guy. Buerhle isn't being moved, this club does not need another #3 guy.

[jays4life19]

Point is we need to push Happ down the depth chart so he's no longer our #5 but our #6/long relief man. I like him fine in that role (and let's be honest, there will be injuries and he'll end up our #5 anyway), but to start the year with him as our #5 is not very inspiring.

 

I see your point. It's just not realistic. If we're talking about ideals then i would argue we need 2 front line starting pitchers. It's just not going to happen with what's left on the FA market and the price to acquire starting pitching via trade.

 

Realistically....how would you go about acquiring a front of the line pitcher and a "3/4" pitcher as you put it. It's not going to happen.

[xposbrad]

I see your point. It's just not realistic. If we're talking about ideals then i would argue we need 2 front line starting pitchers. It's just not going to happen with what's left on the FA market and the price to acquire starting pitching via trade.

 

Realistically....how would you go about acquiring a front of the line pitcher and a "3/4" pitcher as you put it. It's not going to happen.

 

This club doesn't have the payroll to add 2 front line pitchers anyways. Tanaka + Garza would fit the bill, but that would be 37m or so in added payroll. Someone on another board mentioned that several weeks ago Beest said in the Globe that 2014 payroll would stay around where it is now, now I'm not sure if that's true or not, but if it is, don't expect anything done to make this a playoff team.

[jays4life19]

This club doesn't have the payroll to add 2 front line pitchers anyways. Tanaka + Garza would fit the bill, but that would be 37m or so in added payroll. Someone on another board mentioned that several weeks ago Beest said in the Globe that 2014 payroll would stay around where it is now, now I'm not sure if that's true or not, but if it is, don't expect anything done to make this a playoff team.

 

Exactly. He was saying that we HAVE to add a front line pitcher + a 3/4 type. My point was that was not realistic at all. I think we could probably try for a Garza, but a more realistic option would be Jiminez. (ugh). Then we find an upgrade at 2nd base. (Seattle: Ackley or Franklin) Then we find a platoon partner for Lind like Jeff Baker. (Ugh Boras). Looking competitive after that..

 

Edit: This team was s*** last year. i get it. Remember we played a good chunk of the early season with an infield that consisted of Mark D/Izzy at 3rd, Mueno at SS and Bono/Izzy at 2nd base. If we stay healthy....that alone should be a huge improvement.

[xposbrad]

Exactly. He was saying that we HAVE to add a front line pitcher + a 3/4 type. My point was that was not realistic at all. I think we could probably try for a Garza, but a more realistic option would be Jiminez. (ugh). The we find an upgrade at 2nd base. (Seattle: Ackley or Franklin) Then we find a platoon partner for Lind like Jeff Baker. (Ugh Boras).

 

I think those are the moves we'll most likely see as well. I think this club will have to trade a pitcher to free up payroll though if we add another 10m+ pitcher.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I think most people want Samar to come with extension. Personally even if Jays got an option added for a 3rd year, i would do it. Thats 3 years at a good price. As someone mentioned, we would all be content if Sanchez became like Samar in three years..theres also the chance he washes out.

 

I don't want Samardzija if Stroman or Sanchez is going the other way.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Not really, this club has financial constraints. Shark doesn't make this a playoff team, and you prevent this club from going after going a #1 guy. Buerhle isn't being moved, this club does not need another #3 guy.

 

The problem is, what team is itching to trade their #1? And if they entertain trading their #1, you know a massive overpay is in order.

[GeorgiaPeach]

anyhow I agree with most of you this is not a contending team next year as is. Then why stand pat?? Surely they have to be working on something to improve and not spending and not salary dumping is counter productive..something has to give

 

I don't care if they go all in with money, but further decimating the farm for this little window is beyond stupid.

[L54]

The Jays aren't contending for the playoffs this year unless subsequent, significant moves are made on top of Samardzija, so why on earth are we talking about moving Sanchez for Samardzija?

 

I thought the job of a competent GM was to upgrade the team?

[Abomination]

I like to be optimistic too but i don't see this happening without adding at least one quality starter and having some luck.. still on board with a trade for shark but i don't think it's going down.

 

In all reality, replacing JJ with Shark and trading for one of Seattle's 2nd baseman probably puts us in exactly the same spot we were in last year before the season started (projection wise), if not a very small amount ahead.