Blue Jays Cardinals Proposed Trade

[connorp]

I cant believe this thread is at 220+ posts..lol.. that has to be a record for a thread started with a completely retarded and unrealistic trade proposal

[Randy The Robot]

I cant believe this thread is at 220+ posts..lol.. that has to be a record for a thread started with a completely retarded and unrealistic trade proposal

It's the effort that counts; apparently.

[apoc10]

I cant believe this thread is at 220+ posts..lol.. that has to be a record for a thread started with a completely retarded and unrealistic trade proposal

 

Although some people believe it's a ridiculous trade, I think reading an analysis gets the old wheels churning. It spurs creativity and thought. Maybe this exact trade doesn't work, but hopefully it can facilitate other talks or possibilities. I read tons of articles and always reading those comments on articles are fun, yet sometimes quite ignorant. Regardless, it's more of a past time in the offseason until baseball starts up again.

[Randy The Robot]

Although some people believe it's a ridiculous trade, I think reading an analysis gets the old wheels churning. It spurs creativity and thought. Maybe this exact trade doesn't work, but hopefully it can facilitate other talks or possibilities. I read tons of articles and always reading those comments on articles are fun, yet sometimes quite ignorant. Regardless, it's more of a past time in the offseason until baseball starts up again.

Reyes for Lynn, Kelly and Descalso. Free up money and get two young guys with mid rotation stuff with plenty of room for improvement. Descalso is pretty bad but he's versatile and probably an improvement over Izzy.

[apoc10]

Reyes for Lynn, Kelly and Descalso. Free up money and get two young guys with mid rotation stuff with plenty of room for improvement. Descalso is pretty bad but he's versatile and probably an improvement over Izzy.

 

I was reading on Cardinals board that they value Kelly and Lynn quite a bit and together they are worth more than just Miller by itself. Some people even say Kelly is worth more than Miller, but of course that's wide eye fans. I think that's a big package for Reyes, and that Mozeliak has come out and said that depth is a key to their world series run. I think they'd want to keep two MLB starters, and if we did Reyes, Happ, Nolin and $12mill over 3 years, for Miller and Wong, they might be willing to bite.

[z3r0s]

Reyes for Lynn, Kelly and Descalso. Free up money and get two young guys with mid rotation stuff with plenty of room for improvement. Descalso is pretty bad but he's versatile and probably an improvement over Izzy.

 

yuck

[DuckDuckGose]

AA do it

 

How many here would trade Bautista for Holland and Sardinas/Odor?

[connorp]

The Cards wouldn't even move Taveras for Bautista, this thread is preposterous bordering on trolling.

 

Although some people believe it's a ridiculous trade, I think reading an analysis gets the old wheels churning. It spurs creativity and thought. Maybe this exact trade doesn't work, but hopefully it can facilitate other talks or possibilities. I read tons of articles and always reading those comments on articles are fun, yet sometimes quite

ignorant. Regardless, it's more of a past time in the offseason until baseball starts up again.

 

I agree with that concept.. I just took the trade to be a farse being that it was so unrealistic. It's like if someone said "Trade Melky for Trout".. Does that naturally lead to discussion or is it just stupid

[KingKat]

Milk > fish as far as taste goes.

 

Are you kidding? Fish has a way better FAV (Flavour Above Average).

[apoc10]

I agree with that concept.. I just took the trade to be a farse being that it was so unrealistic. It's like if someone said "Trade Melky for Trout".. Does that naturally lead to discussion or is it just stupid

 

I don't think Melky for Trout is on the same level as what I proposed. Trout I feel is almost untradeable, but I'm sure certain realistic packages could tempt them like Hernadez, or Kershaw, but now we're really off topic. I don't think Miller, Taveras, Martinez or Wong has the same proven track record as Trout. It's like the package for halladay with Drabek, Darnaud, Gose, didn't really turn out great. Those 3 prospects are still in the TBD aisle. Rasmus was considered can't miss at a certain time and still got traded. I think their are two sides to the coin and as prospects, you're still waiting on potential. Trout is no longer a prospect and is a proven commodity, while Melky was PED and only had 1 spectacular year under scrutiny and is nowhere close to Reyes and Bautista. So you overexaggerated quite a bit, but I understand the how much St. Louis would give up, and that's depleting their farm. I don't think they would do that like the Jays did last year.

 

We traded as of Nov 7, 2012,

#1 (Darnaud), #2 (Marsnick), #3(Snydergaard), #5(Nicolino), #8 (Hecc) and former #10(woj 2012 ranking), former #5 (alvarez)

for 1 Cy Young, 1 all-star SS, 1 former cy young, and 1 aging all-star SP.

 

Cardinals as of Jan 2013;

Taveras #1, Miller #2, Martinez#3, Wong #5

for 1 perennial all-star RF, 1 all-star SS, 1 solid closer.

 

You're right that is a bit much if we're ignoring Marlins salary dump and just look at talent and maybe we'd have to add to our package like Delabar (all-star reliever), Happ (#5 pitcher), Low A prospects.

[Randy The Robot]

I was reading on Cardinals board that they value Kelly and Lynn quite a bit and together they are worth more than just Miller by itself. Some people even say Kelly is worth more than Miller, but of course that's wide eye fans. I think that's a big package for Reyes, and that Mozeliak has come out and said that depth is a key to their world series run. I think they'd want to keep two MLB starters, and if we did Reyes, Happ, Nolin and $12mill over 3 years, for Miller and Wong, they might be willing to bite.

Cardinal message boards are full of hardcore casual fans that still use ERA and wins to evaluate a player. Kelly for me is meh; he has really good stuff but he doesn't have the control or stamina to stay in the rotation long term. I see him as a dominate late inning guy. Lynn's only problem is stamina; if he gets that settled I can see him becoming a legit 2 in any rotation. Miller has the talent to become one of, if not the best pitcher in baseball. Plus he's significantly younger than Kelly and Lynn. I would take Miller over just about every rookie/sophomore/prospect in baseball, and definately taking him over the combination of Lynn/Kelly. Also I find it crazy that you think this package is overpaying, but the other one isn't.

[apoc10]

Cardinal message boards are full of hardcore casual fans that still use ERA and wins to evaluate a player. Kelly for me is meh; he has really good stuff but he doesn't have the control or stamina to stay in the rotation long term. I see him as a dominate late inning guy. Lynn's only problem is stamina; if he gets that settled I can see him becoming a legit 2 in any rotation. Miller has the talent to become one of, if not the best pitcher in baseball. Plus he's significantly younger than Kelly and Lynn. I would take Miller over just about every rookie/sophomore/prospect in baseball, and definately taking him over the combination of Lynn/Kelly. Also I find it crazy that you think this package is overpaying, but the other one isn't.

 

Well I did say we had different valuations on Lynn/Kelly versus Miller, but in a Jays trade I would only ask for Miller as his potential is very high, like you said. I wouldn't want to acquire Lynn/Kelly as it just back fills our rotation. My thinking is what combination of Bautista/Reyes/etc would we need to give up to get Miller etc.

[Fearthedoc]

I would take Miller over just about every rookie/sophomore/prospect in baseball

 

Jose Fernandez being the exception?

[Randy The Robot]

Jose Fernandez being the exception?

I think it's pretty subjective. Fernandez is younger but talent wise it's a toss up. Most would take Fernandez(for good reason) but I've been a Shelby fanboy since he was drafted.

[Dr. Dinger]

That's not a toss up really, Fernandez smokes Shelby.

[Dr. Dinger]

Younger, twice the WAR in identical IP, better velo, GB%, K%, and Fernandez got better his second time through the league while Miller struggled. Just MO, but I think Fernandez is a Top 5 SP going forward. Monster.

[Dr. Dinger]

2nd Half

 

11.1 K/9

4.67 K/BB

1.99 FIP

49% GB

.208 wOBA against

 

Sweet Jesus Christ.

[Dr. Dinger]

Also, fun fact, Fernandez had a higher wOBA (.237) as a hitter this year than hitters had against him (.236).

[Randy The Robot]

Younger, twice the WAR in identical IP, better velo, GB%, K%, and Fernandez got better his second time through the league while Miller struggled. Just MO, but I think Fernandez is a Top 5 SP going forward. Monster.

 

Fernandez is absolutely the better pitcher right now; that goes without saying. But it's still just one year and long term they should be very close.

[Dr. Dinger]

You really pop up fast when Fernandez gets mentioned lol. I should throw his name out some time you're not online and time your response.

 

Fernandez is clearly better, but there is a conversation. You can't deny that Fernandez benefited from more than a little BABIP luck.

 

Not as much as you probably think. A .260-.270 BABIP is sustainable for a pitcher with such filthy stuff. His fastball routinely works 95-97 with nasty movement, whereas Miller's is very straight (this has always been a knock on him).

[Dr. Dinger]

Damn, Greinke is savvy with the bat. Love that guy.

[Angrioter]

Not as much as you probably think. A .260-.270 BABIP is sustainable for a pitcher with such filthy stuff. His fastball routinely works 95-97 with nasty movement, whereas Miller's is very straight (this has always been a knock on him).

 

Miller is good. Fernandez is in another galaxy ......... Right now both are at very different levels.

[DuckDuckGose]

That's not a toss up really, Fernandez smokes Shelby.

 

Ya, I'm a big Miller fan but Fernandez is a generational talent.

[Nox]

Ya, I'm a big Miller fan but Fernandez is a generational talent.

 

Easy.

 

Why does everyone have to speak with such hyperbole? Fernandez isn't even the best pitching prospect of the last 5 years (Strasburg was far better as a prospect).

[Nox]

Related is the notion than Jurickson Profar is a bust (that the Jays shouldn't acquire) because he didn't set the world on fire at 20.

 

Indeed. This is one of the stupidest common narratives among casuals.

[Dr. Dinger]

I don't think Profar is a bust, but I do think he's considerably overrated, especially as a fanasy asset.

[z3r0s]

I don't think Profar is a bust, but I do think he's considerably overrated, especially as a fanasy asset.

 

I also don't think he'll ever be a great fantasy guy, but I do think he'll be an anchor of someone's IF.

[Abomination]

I don't think Profar is a bust, but I do think he's considerably overrated, especially as a fanasy asset.

 

He MIGHT be slightly overrated as a fantasy asset, but irl I don't think he is. The Rangers were mucking with him last year playing him out of position, but he should be an elite level defender at SS with the ability to put up .800 ops while only being 21 at the start of next year. Hard to overrate that.

[Nox]

I don't think Profar is a bust, but I do think he's considerably overrated, especially as a fanasy asset.

 

Yah, he's not a surefire fantasy monster by any stretch. But his shortstopedness and age/level make him an absolutely primo real baseball prospect.

 

91 wRC+ with good SS defense next year? Yes plz.

[Dr. Dinger]

He inspires some black and white thinking for sure. There's about a 40% chance he busts altogether and maybe a 10-15% chance he's a franchise player. It's quite likely that he's something more akin to Alexei Ramirez or Edgar Renteria, a boring middle ground likelihood that most people tend to disregard.