Sporting News AL manager of the year is...

[Atothe]

Stop whining guys, if A.A and Beeston don't make the playoffs next then both are gone hopefully, fingers crossed. Then opefully we can poach the st louis for a gm.

[Olerud363]

This is the dumbest

 

Farrell was a pitching coach. Then he left for 2 years. He's been back for less than 12 months.

 

Do you honestly think he's even the least bit responsible for the "development" and on base focus/plate discipline/etc of the Red Sox offense in that time frame? No. That was already there.

 

He inherited a very good team. The FO bought some good veteran free agents who outperformed expectations. He didn't screw up. They had way fewer injuries than the Jays or Yankees. They were able to compensate for the fact that their one young in-house hitting prospect had a crappy year. They won a lot of games.

 

And despite being obviously jealous I'm actually happy for him. It's a good story for 2013, whether we sour Blue Jays fans like it or not.

 

There was something that happened between Murphy, Farrell and the hitters. Lind hinted at it in March and AA blew up at him.

 

Do I think he's at all responsible for the development of and on base focus/plate discipline/etc??

 

Sure. I mean he could of brought Dwayne Murphy with him, along side Butterfield. He didn't do that, so that helped.

 

I think you guys are underestimating the power of stupidity. And the benefits of "not being crazy stupid".

 

Farrell got away from Dwayne Murphy. That was a huge step. Farrell isn't a genius... but he is the type of guy who will listen to geniuses and can work with them. The Blue Jays don't have that.

 

I bring up RIM sometimes, never worked there but know several people who have. RIM fell because they refused to believe what the geniuses believed. Zuckerburg, Steve Jobs, a few others saw that every little moron would want a hand help internet pager type thingy. Bill James saw the importance of statistics and analysis.

 

Jays and RIM have a lot in common. Smart organizations follow the geniuses. Bad organizations are to proud and stick to their own views, even when it is obvious their own views are wrong.

[Olerud363]

This is the dumbest

 

Farrell was a pitching coach. Then he left for 2 years. He's been back for less than 12 months.

 

Do you honestly think he's even the least bit responsible for the "development" and on base focus/plate discipline/etc of the Red Sox offense in that time frame? No. That was already there.

 

He inherited a very good team. The FO bought some good veteran free agents who outperformed expectations. He didn't screw up. They had way fewer injuries than the Jays or Yankees. They were able to compensate for the fact that their one young in-house hitting prospect had a crappy year. They pitched well. David Ortiz continues to defy the laws of aging. They won a lot of games.

 

And despite being obviously jealous I'm actually happy for him. It's a good story for 2013, whether we sour Blue Jays fans like it or not.

 

It comes down to this... you guys have all your WAR, analysis, and other stuff. Great stuff. But what's the use of it all if the Jays keep Dwayne Murphy but get rid of Brian Butterfield??

 

Farrell said "Butterfield a smart guy, I want him... Murphy I will not take" -- can you put a WAR on that?? I mean if Butterfield is say +2 WAR, and Murphy is -2 WAR, well by making that decision. Getting one very good coach, getting rid of a bad Coach... is it crazy that something like that is worth 4 wins??

 

I don't know if it is worth 4 wins.... and even if it is.... well that doesn't mean Farrell is worth 4 wins... any bloody organization would do the same thing... except for the blue jays.

[G-Snarls]

It comes down to this... you guys have all your WAR, analysis, and other stuff. Great stuff. But what's the use of it all if the Jays keep Dwayne Murphy but get rid of Brian Butterfield??

 

Farrell said "Butterfield a smart guy, I want him... Murphy I will not take" -- can you put a WAR on that?? I mean if Butterfield is say +2 WAR, and Murphy is -2 WAR, well by making that decision. Getting one very good coach, getting rid of a bad Coach... is it crazy that something like that is worth 4 wins??

 

I don't know if it is worth 4 wins.... and even if it is.... well that doesn't mean Farrell is worth 4 wins... any bloody organization would do the same thing... except for the blue jays.

 

I agree that Farrell taking Butterfield was both one of the smartest things Farrell has done, and also most danaging to the Blue Jays

[JaysAllMighty]

The sad part about it all is that WE are living in Farrell's dream.

 

Nightmare for all of us.

 

Seems like the Jays can't do anything right for the past 20 years.

[G-Snarls]

What makes you say that though? I love Butter but it's not like the Red Sox infield defense was anything special. It actually went from a 27.2 UZR in 2012 to 6.2 in 2013.

 

And it's not like Lawrie fell apart defensively without Butter guiding him.

 

I'm basing it purely on how many good things people have to say about him I guess. FWIW the rest of our infield defense was brutal. Not that Butter would have necessarily been able to help that much given who we were sending out there.

[KingKat]

What makes you say that though? I love Butter but it's not like the Red Sox infield defense was anything special. It actually went from a 27.2 UZR in 2012 to 6.2 in 2013.

 

And it's not like Lawrie fell apart defensively without Butter guiding him.

 

I would think if there would be an effect from Butterfield leaving it would be the shift strategies that he took with him. Would those be reflected in UZR? I would think those would more acurately be reflected in opponent's BABIP but my understanding of UZR is pretty hazy.

[KingKat]

Hint 5: Bobby Valentine chimed in yesterday (I s*** you not) that if the front office for this team had made all these changes for him a year earlier, that he could have gotten them to the playoffs last year. Or something like that. LOL.

 

He's probably right. Teams have made the playoffs with Valentine before. You can be the most hated manager in the game and still win. It just doesn't matter that much. I'd hazard a guess that 90% of managers are either drunks, idiots, a-holes or some combination of the three.

[GeorgiaPeach]

People have a lot of trouble dealing with grey and fuzziness. The problem with anything is that to get in a position of power you need to be smiley, simple, clear, concise and full of ********. That's how you get promoted in an organization. (see Anthopoulus, Alex, Beeston, Paul).

 

If you have views that are grey, or fuzzy people want to pigeon hole you into a black and white view. It's hilarious the reaction I get to the Farrell stuff.

 

I think the Farrell situation says a lot about the Jays, and the Sox, and the people who run each organization. No where have I ever said that Farrell is worth 20 wins.

 

But every time it comes up I get "20 win manager bro!!!"

 

Because you're applauding Farrell. Over the course of one year he hasn't become this ultra great manager. He's the same guy in a different system, with different ideologies and better players.

 

So when I look at Farrell he's the same manager/person he was here.

 

The team (collection of players + Red Sox big picture strategy) is what got them where they are. You make it overblown on Farrell's importance and effect on the Sox.

 

Get it?

[Sammy225]

Maybe this is just my naïve way of thinking, but I don't think it really matters who was the manager of the Sox they would have made the playoffs. It did not matter who the manager of the jays was they would have been right around where they finished this season (maybe 1-2 wins either way).

 

I am a believer that a manager does not have a huge impact on the game. The way I see it as long as he is good at managing the bullpen they players will ultimately decide the outcome of a season/series.

 

If you ask me today who I would have taken after this season (JF or Esmil Rogers). Defiantly Rogers.

[Boxcar]

Your posts are absolutely unbearable to read.

 

I have him on ignore, but apparently it's not enough since people insist on quoting him and responding to his rambleposts.

[Olerud363]

You're getting way too excited about Farrell, Butter, Beeston, etc. The baseball intelligence of coaches and GMs is reflected in the decisions they make, not in some magical winning substance they excrete. You're proposing things that can't be verified.

 

The 2013 Red Sox had great pitching and good hitters throughout the lineup. What precise combination of factors that was due to - coaching, talent, variance, chemistry - cannot be known. Leave it at that. We don't know the impact Farrell's staff had, so it's best to not throw random numbers in the air.

 

This logic could extend to any discussion on the board. We can never know anything for sure... so leave it at that.

 

We can still speculate....

[KingKat]

This logic could extend to any discussion on the board. We can never know anything for sure... so leave it at that.

 

We can still speculate....

 

What a cop out. Some things can more easily be qualified than others. It is certainly NOT futile to distinguish between the two.

[Olerud363]

This is the smartest thing you've said today

 

I'm honestly not sure what I said that was so objectional today. Farrell is a good baseball guy?? Farrell didn't get along with Beeston??

 

I didn't say Farrell was worth 20 WAR... I didn't say fire John Gibbons. I've never said blue jays would win 90 with Farrell. But people are acting like I said those things.

[Olerud363]

Because you're applauding Farrell. Over the course of one year he hasn't become this ultra great manager. He's the same guy in a different system, with different ideologies and better players.

 

So when I look at Farrell he's the same manager/person he was here.

 

The team (collection of players + Red Sox big picture strategy) is what got them where they are. You make it overblown on Farrell's importance and effect on the Sox.

 

Get it?

 

Couldn't of said it better myself. And actually I allready have many times.... I posted this June 30th.

 

"I do not literally think that John Farrell himself, put randomly into any organization, would improve the teams on base percentage, that is he would not have any effect on it without buy-in from upper management.

 

What I think that both Red Sox upper management and Farrell are on the same page and work well together. They like the same kind of players, and the same kind of coaches. I don't think that was the case in Toronto. I think we only heard the tip of the ice burg about why Farrell left."

[eastcoastjaysfan]

I'm honestly not sure what I said that was so objectional today. Farrell is a good baseball guy?? Farrell didn't get along with Beeston??

 

I didn't say Farrell was worth 20 WAR... I didn't say fire John Gibbons. I've never said blue jays would win 90 with Farrell. But people are acting like I said those things.

 

It's the way you say it. Learn how to get your point across quicker and also (for the love of god) please learn how to speak/type without being so irritating. You type out essays about how you "believe in OBP" and how much you hate Beeston every second post.

 

It's like you think of yourself as some type of baseball revolutionary or something.

 

Just be cool. If you're real-life personality is anything like your E-personality... well.. I really don't think you would be the life of the party.

[Olerud363]

It's the way you say it. Learn how to get your point across quicker and also (for the love of god) please learn how to speak/type without being so irritating. You type out essays about how you "believe in OBP" and how much you hate Beeston every second post.

 

It's like you think of yourself as some type of baseball revolutionary or something.

 

Just be cool. If you're real-life personality is anything like your E-personality... well.. I really don't think you would be the life of the party.

 

I won't disagree with you, other than "it's like you think of yourself as some type of baseball revolutionary". That couldn't be farther from the truth. There have been a few revolutionaries the last 25 years and I just wish the Jays would learn from them. Half the s*** I say is copied word for word from Bill James 1984, and 1985 abstracts, and Bill James 90-92 Baseball book.

[kcjaysfan]

He's probably right. Teams have made the playoffs with Valentine before. You can be the most hated manager in the game and still win. It just doesn't matter that much. I'd hazard a guess that 90% of managers are either drunks, idiots, a-holes or some combination of the three.

 

The Expos won 83 games in 2002 and 2003. Frank Robinson spent most of his time on the bench sleeping.

[G-Snarls]

I don't think he's wrong though...

 

Me neither

 

I just don't think any Red Sox fans likely wanted to hear from him on the topic

[G-Snarls]

Valentine's comments:

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2013-10-23/world-series-2013-bobby-valentine-says-he-could-have-done-the-same-thing-with-red-sox

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/10/21/former-manager-bobby-valentine-rooting-for-red-sox-doesn-quite-understand-all-criticism/MCANhR0rbllVFs33PrYi7L/story.html

 

As for the 2013 Red Sox?

 

“I picked them to win the division, the ALDS, the ALCS, and now the World Series,” Valentine said. “I’m rooting them on. The [12] guys left on that team that I managed were all good guys. I enjoyed all of them, so why wouldn’t I root for them?”

 

And his replacement?

 

“He’s obviously done a great job,” Valentine said. “I haven’t heard one negative thing. I haven’t seen anything weird. I really enjoyed watching the two managers in the ALCS. John is this new-wave guy, but when it came to playing Jonny Gomes, he stuck with him because Gomes gave him a better look. I love that. [Tigers manager Jim] Leyland is supposed to be the old-school guy and old-school guys usually leave their pitchers in a long time. Yet he took Max Scherzer out of Game 2 after 108 pitches. So I found it interesting watching that.”

 

Most managers get more than one year to turn around a bad ship, which tells you how bad Red Sox ownership thought Valentine’s tenure was.

 

If Farrell hadn’t been traded to the Red Sox, he would have had another year to turn around a 73-win team in Toronto. It’s a good thing, in more ways than one, that Farrell got the chance to come to the Red Sox, who revamped their team and spent the money they saved in the Dodgers deal almost perfectly. Farrell was able to establish himself, because up until now there were many questions about his ability to do the job.

 

“I’d like to think that if I came back for my second year that, given the changes and improvements, I would have been able to do the same thing,” Valentine said. “Ben did a great job this offseason rebuilding the team. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like it before. Usually a team will go after one or two free agents and hope they work out. When you’re signing seven or eight guys and they all work out and blend in together as well as they did, that’s amazing to me. The entire organization should be very proud of what they did. They should take a bow. It was amazing work.”

[G-Snarls]

http://c.o0bg.com/rf/image_960w/Boston/2011-2020/2013/10/22/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/davis_texbospre1_spts.jpg

[Olerud363]

The Expos won 83 games in 2002 and 2003. Frank Robinson spent most of his time on the bench sleeping.

 

I was talking about this to someone the other day... I remember early September 2003 the Expos tied for the wild card... it would of created HUGE problems for Selig if they actually won something... as he was in the process of moving them to Washington. So under the "guidance" of Robinson, who had been appointed by Selig, they tanked in September...

 

What a fiasco. In the end Jeffrey Loria and the Marlins won the entire damn thing. Just so convenient. Loria leaves, takes the entire coaching staff, and I think even the office supplies and crap, and then all of a sudden gets a world series championship to jumpstart his Miami experience.

 

The expos tied for the wild card on a Thursday early September, then went to Miami, were leading the first game and Rocky Biddle (I think?) blows the game.

 

There was a great board back then... fanhome or something?? Wonder if it ever got archived. Be amazing to read the game thread that night in Miami.

[connorp]

I don't think he's wrong though...

 

I think any manager is going to be + or - a small number of games during a season. They certainly arent going to be +10 WAR guys but I do believe there's such thing as negative WAR managers. I think Bobby V falls under that category.

 

I dont think a manager can make guys play harder to win.. but I do think it's their responsibilty to keep the team together and focused. When they dont and players become unhappy, I think it can negatively impact performace. It's one thing saber doesnt measure. Like how Aaron Hill can go from a 0 WAR guy to a 5 WAR guy overnight. Players are human.. like any other workplace.. a bad environment can effect performance. But on the flip side as I said, I dont think managers can rally guys to more wins.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I was talking about this to someone the other day... I remember early September 2003 the Expos tied for the wild card... it would of created HUGE problems for Selig if they actually won something... as he was in the process of moving them to Washington. So under the "guidance" of Robinson, who had been appointed by Selig, they tanked in September...

 

What a fiasco. In the end Jeffrey Loria and the Marlins won the entire damn thing. Just so convenient. Loria leaves, takes the entire coaching staff, and I think even the office supplies and crap, and then all of a sudden gets a world series championship to jumpstart his Miami experience.

 

The expos tied for the wild card on a Thursday early September, then went to Miami, were leading the first game and Rocky Biddle (I think?) blows the game.

 

There was a great board back then... fanhome or something?? Wonder if it ever got archived. Be amazing to read the game thread that night in Miami.

 

I'm not sure what a team re-locating and winning or going to the playoffs just before they leave has anything to do with anything?

 

On field product has nothing to do with a team re-locating.

[Olerud363]

I'm not sure what a team re-locating and winning or going to the playoffs just before they leave has anything to do with anything?

 

On field product has nothing to do with a team re-locating.

 

A winning team is harder to move because attendance goes up. If Tampa Bay didn't win they would draw about 500,000 fans a year and we would hear talk of relocation. Winning they draw 1.5 million so live on...

 

If Montreal had a winning team in the late 90s they would of drawn 1.5-2 million or so... the 96 team drew 1.6 or 1.7 million, and if they had won the wild card and been able to have sustained success they probably would of drawn 2-million a year and never of left. By 2003 it was probably to late no matter what. But if they had won like the Marlins did... it would of been a pain for Selig.

 

In bad years they drew 700,000. I know your opinion is that if you can't draw during bad years then you don't deserve to have a team. That's fine. But don't say "On field product has nothing to do with a team re-locating" because it does...

[Olerud363]

This is the dumbest

 

Farrell was a pitching coach. Then he left for 2 years. He's been back for less than 12 months.

 

Do you honestly think he's even the least bit responsible for the "development" and on base focus/plate discipline/etc of the Red Sox offense in that time frame? No. That was already there.

 

He inherited a very good team. The FO bought some good veteran free agents who outperformed expectations. He didn't screw up. They had way fewer injuries than the Jays or Yankees. They were able to compensate for the fact that their one young in-house hitting prospect had a crappy year. They pitched well. David Ortiz continues to defy the laws of aging. They won a lot of games.

 

And despite being obviously jealous I'm actually happy for him. It's a good story for 2013, whether we sour Blue Jays fans like it or not.

 

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2012/11/29/red-sox-pick-greg-colbrunn-hitting-coach/66vdZhNTWz9GmsvA66areM/story.html

 

Farrell said Colbrunn shares his philosophy of getting the Red Sox back to a more patient approach, something their hitters let slide last season under hitting coach Dave Magadan, who was hired by Texas in October.

 

“I think the most important [factor] when you consider an assistant hitting coach is they’ve got to be aligned in their overall thoughts as far as hitting goes,” Farrell said. “We can’t have conflicting messages to the individuals. And once that rapport is built with those two staff members, now it gives the ability to have that trust.”

 

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/02/16/blue-jays-adam-lind-colby-rasmus-hope-to-benefit-from-the-approach-of-their-new-hitting-coach/

 

“You have a manager telling you one thing, who was a pitcher,” Lind said Saturday. “It makes it tough because he was from Boston where they were very selective and things like that. Coming up through this organization, it wasn’t something that we preached or was taught at the lower levels. That’s what [Farrell] wanted to see, and then to have a hitting coach like Murph, who’s an aggressive-type hitting coach, sometimes you get a little confused on who you want to please.

[GeorgiaPeach]

A winning team is harder to move because attendance goes up. If Tampa Bay didn't win they would draw about 500,000 fans a year and we would hear talk of relocation. Winning they draw 1.5 million so live on...

 

If Montreal had a winning team in the late 90s they would of drawn 1.5-2 million or so... the 96 team drew 1.6 or 1.7 million, and if they had won the wild card and been able to have sustained success they probably would of drawn 2-million a year and never of left. By 2003 it was probably to late no matter what. But if they had won like the Marlins did... it would of been a pain for Selig.

 

In bad years they drew 700,000. I know your opinion is that if you can't draw during bad years then you don't deserve to have a team. That's fine. But don't say "On field product has nothing to do with a team re-locating" because it does...

 

The Expos who in '92, '93 & '94 finished 2nd, 2nd and were in 1st place when the work stoppage occurred, with a ridiculously talented team were 10th, 13th & 11th in NL attendance. The Montreal market is f***ing s*** and I'm tired of hearing about how great it would be if Canada had another baseball team. Take the "I love Canada" aspect out of it, and MLB would me tepidly better off in Montreal than say Tampa, if they do in fact have a new stadium plan and an ownership group with money billowing out of its pockets.

[John_Havok]

An interesting perspective on Farrell's personality from TO to Boston.

 

http://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2013/10/22/why_red_sox_manager_john_farrell_isnt_the_dour_sod_he_was_with_the_blue_jays_kelly.html

[GeorgiaPeach]

Just say it how it is brother. I still think I saw Kev, on Expo day against the Rays?!?!

 

I know Kev' has a soft spot in his heart for the 'Spos and its not a knock on him. I just can't understand why people keep thinking its this great market that's a must to go back to.

[G-Snarls]

Farrell proved his worth last night

 

He got the umps to reverse a call in a game

 

This never happens

 

All hail!!