Vote what you would do this offseason

[kgm1]

Interested what the majority would do If they were the GM and had total support from ownership

 

While the offense with health could be very good the rotation has obvious holes at the top of the order.

[GD]

Holy s*** there have been so many of these threads and I was planning on starting another one. Let's just wait until after the WS is over and then everyone can post their plans.

 

If I had to answer I'd go C

[GeorgiaPeach]

I'm never a fan of option B or C. I was happy with where the team was before they went and got all stupid, so A.

[jays_fever]

As long as Beeston and the whole front office are gone, i couldnt care less what the new regime would do. Going all in is pretty stupid, but theres at least a proper way to do it, not trade for bloated FA contracts..and give up assets to do so.

[kgm1]

I would agree Peach but now that we have gone this far i would choose B and see where we are in July . If not right in it I would gut the team and rebuild

[GD]

If you're getting full support from ownership you spend, McCann/Tanaka and Infante. Trade for Lynn/Bailey, done.

 

ftfy

[Laika]

Gut/rebuild wouldn't make very much sense given how, uh, in deep the team is already. Doesn't make sense to get in up to your neck and then decide the water's too cold.

 

There are smart and efficient way to trade key pieces for what is needed, trade minor league assets for what's needed, and sign free agents to fill some holes. It won't be easy and I have almost no confidence in the FO's ability to put it all together, but it's not impossible.

[kgm1]

If you're getting full support from ownership you spend, McCann/Tanaka and Infante. Trade for Cahill, done.

 

LOL Jay , I guess I should have stated a budget . Love your offseason though if money isn't an issue . I'd even take Ruiz instead of McCann

[GeorgiaPeach]

I would agree Peach but now that we have gone this far i would choose B and see where we are in July . If not right in it I would gut the team and rebuild

 

For B, didn't you suggest trading Bautista? If that's the case I'd want nothing less than a superb package of "prospects" coming back. Sad thing is I think this team is built for the next couple years on extreme veteraness.

 

f***, I hate windows to win. But the funny thing is when a team comes out and defines a window to win, the fans love it because they think...YES!!!!! we're going for it over the next 3 years. But they're oblivious to the cliff after that 3 year window. And then when the cliff is staring them in the face they get all upset.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Hey man I'll take a Championship, but I really thought we were on our way to be a sustainable competitive team for years to come. As you know, I was loving that direction.

 

The thing that bugs me is, you have fans who ridicule the Sox & Yankees for years and guess what the Jays are in the same boat now with a junky ass team.

[kgm1]

For B, didn't you suggest trading Bautista? If that's the case I'd want nothing less than a superb package of "prospects" coming back. Sad thing is I think this team is built for the next couple years on extreme veteraness.

 

f***, I hate windows to win. But the funny thing is when a team comes out and defines a window to win, the fans love it because they think...YES!!!!! we're going for it over the next 3 years. But they're oblivious to the cliff after that 3 year window. And then when the cliff is staring them in the face they get all upset.

 

We are on the cliff already . It is like I posted the whole team ( Most of it) is a 2 year stop gap . AA made that decision when he gutted the farm instead of following the plan he had . We could have been in the cards position or similar in 3 years but I believe ownership forced this .

 

We can take a shot in 2014 ( hugley dependent on health ) and if it doiesn't work then we Have to gut or go over the cliff

[GeorgiaPeach]

We are on the cliff already . It is like I posted the whole team ( Most of it) is a 2 year stop gap . AA made that decision when he gutted the farm instead of following the plan he had . We could have been in the cards position or similar in 3 years but I believe ownership forced this .

 

We can take a shot in 2014 ( hugley dependent on health ) and if it doiesn't work then we Have to gut or go over the cliff

 

If the team keeps heading down the old, expensive, wily vet path, I hope the organization goes off a cliff. f*** everyone for a good 4, 5 years.

[kgm1]

If the team keeps heading down the old, expensive, wily vet path, I hope the organization goes off a cliff. f*** everyone for a good 4, 5 years.

 

What good would that do . Spite only screws everyone including yourself . What do you do when your bosses instruct you to go down a path you think is wrong . You quit or follow the path . When proven wrong the Boss always blames those who did what they were told . Always the way . A lot of us disagreed with the change in direction but now all in no sense not trying to fix as long as it doesn't hurt the long term .

I would trade Rasmus or Bautista for young MLB ready pitching . look to compete and gut if I didn't

[GeorgiaPeach]

What good would that do . Spite only screws everyone including yourself . What do you do when your bosses instruct you to go down a path you think is wrong . You quit or follow the path . When proven wrong the Boss always blames those who did what they were told . Always the way . A lot of us disagreed with the change in direction but now all in no sense not trying to fix as long as it doesn't hurt the long term .

I would trade Rasmus or Bautista for young MLB ready pitching . look to compete and gut if I didn't

 

If the plan is to keep heading down that path and after failure in a couple years they're like "we're gonna go young and rebuild" and carry on about how good the farm is", what good is that? It's like the f***ing USA who every year hypes the s*** out of how scary the raising of the debt ceiling is. Its like, ya, ya I've heard this story before, now f*** off.

 

As for it affecting me.......I don't know where you get that from.

 

When my bosses instruct me to go down a path I know is wrong....I'll give my rational for why I don't think I should. But in the end, I can't really refuse otherwise they can impose discipline if they feel it necessary. As for your example, if Beeston gave Alex instruction to spend like crazy or go crazy making the MLB team better, why ignore free agency options who are younger, cheaper, better?

 

If Rasmus & Bautista are traded for MLB ready pitching, besides Gose "replacing" Rasmus, who replaces Bautista in the OF? Melky's already a huge question mark for 2014, and our internal options have major question marks themselves. We may have an ultra deep solid staff, but the OF would be amongst the worst defensively & offensively in baseball.

[Laika]

I really think that one of the best and most creative / efficient ways to "fix" the team in the short term is to deal Bautista.

 

The Rangers are a perfect fit. No, they aren't going to give up Profar for him. But the Jays would be able to ask for Kinsler +, and that plus would come from a fairly deep farm system.

 

Bautista was born in Oct/1980 and he's under contract for two more years at an AAV of 14M + a team option at the same amount.

 

Kinsler was born in June/1982 and he's under contract for four more yeats at an AAV of 15.5M + a team option at 12M (with a 5M buyout that I've included in the 4 year AAV).

 

Bautista is objectively better. In the last 2 years he's produced 7.2 fWAR in just 927 PA. That's a WAR/150 of 5.14. The year before (2011) he was worth 7.7 wins in 655 PA.

Kinsler in the last 2 years has put up just 5.5 total fWAR in 1345 PA. That's a WAR/150 of just 2.82. But the year before (2011), he was worth a lofty 7.3 wins, and he has a couple of nearly 5 win years on his resume before that. So the upside is there.

 

Bautista has been better, but that's why the Blue Jays can justifiably ask for a fair chunk more than just Kinsler. Bautista is also 2 years older and *might* be breaking down a bit, so whether he'll be much better going forward is up for debate. Kinsler has been fairly healthy in the last few years after looking like he might be a somewhat injury prone guy a few seasons ago. He also has 2 more years of control at a not unreasonable rate, which would extend some of the contractual control that Toronto currently has on its core players.

 

It's a lot easier to plug a corner OF hole in free agency than it is to plug a middle infield hole. It's not all about straight wins, sometimes it's about peer relative wins. A 4 win player might be a better option than a 6 win player, if the 4 win guy plays a position where almost all free agent options are more or less replacement level. You can trade your 6 for the 4 + a legit arm/prospect or whatever, then go sign a 2 in free agency to fill the hole you made by dealing the 6, and come out on top.

 

Last 3 years Kinsler has been the #4 2B in baseball, with 12.8 wins.

Last 3 years Bautista has been the #7 OF in baseball, with 15 wins.

 

Bautista also kind of seems like a selfish whiny suckface who might have a bad or weird clubhouse influence (not that I would place any value in conjecture like this).

 

What if they could land, like, Kinsler and Matt Harrison?

or Kinsler and Feliz?

or Kinsler, Ogando, and Luke Jackson?

 

Or anything in that vein.

[ElNik2013]

Shouldn't there be an option to address the holes through free agency?

 

I would prefer the total rebuild option, but would wait till around june/july of next year because of Bautista, EE and Morrow's injuries. I think if these 3 guys show that they are healthy and performing, they will fetch more than this off season.

[Angrioter]

I really think that one of the best and most creative / efficient ways to "fix" the team in the short term is to deal Bautista.

 

The Rangers are a perfect fit. No, they aren't going to give up Profar for him. But the Jays would be able to ask for Kinsler +, and that plus would come from a fairly deep farm system.

 

Bautista was born in Oct/1980 and he's under contract for two more years at an AAV of 14M + a team option at the same amount.

 

Kinsler was born in June/1982 and he's under contract for four more yeats at an AAV of 15.5M + a team option at 12M (with a 5M buyout that I've included in the 4 year AAV).

 

Bautista is objectively better. In the last 2 years he's produced 7.2 fWAR in just 927 PA. That's a WAR/150 of 5.14. The year before (2011) he was worth 7.7 wins in 655 PA.

Kinsler in the last 2 years has put up just 5.5 total fWAR in 1345 PA. That's a WAR/150 of just 2.82. But the year before (2011), he was worth a lofty 7.3 wins, and he has a couple of nearly 5 win years on his resume before that. So the upside is there.

 

Bautista has been better, but that's why the Blue Jays can justifiably ask for a fair chunk more than just Kinsler. Bautista is also 2 years older and *might* be breaking down a bit, so whether he'll be much better going forward is up for debate. Kinsler has been fairly healthy in the last few years after looking like he might be a somewhat injury prone guy a few seasons ago. He also has 2 more years of control at a not unreasonable rate, which would extend some of the contractual control that Toronto currently has on its core players.

 

It's a lot easier to plug a corner OF hole in free agency than it is to plug a middle infield hole. It's not all about straight wins, sometimes it's about peer relative wins. A 4 win player might be a better option than a 6 win player, if the 4 win guy plays a position where almost all free agent options are more or less replacement level. You can trade your 6 for the 4 + a legit arm/prospect or whatever, then go sign a 2 in free agency to fill the hole you made by dealing the 6, and come out on top.

 

Last 3 years Kinsler has been the #4 2B in baseball, with 12.8 wins.

Last 3 years Bautista has been the #7 OF in baseball, with 15 wins.

 

Bautista also kind of seems like a selfish whiny suckface who might have a bad or weird clubhouse influence (not that I would place any value in conjecture like this).

 

What if they could land, like, Kinsler and Matt Harrison?

or Kinsler and Feliz?

or Kinsler, Ogando, and Luke Jackson?

 

Or anything in that vein.

 

Jon Daniels is not a stupid as AA. Jon Daniels knows better the business than AA and He has very clear in his mind the phrases "positional value" and "surplus value"

[Laika]

Jon Daniels is not a stupid as AA. Jon Daniels knows better the business than AA and He has very clear in his mind the phrases "positional value" and "surplus value"

 

I'm not even saying that they should try to "win" a trade with Texas. I just think that a fair trade with the Rangers could hold good value for Toronto.

[ElNik2013]

Jon Daniels is not a stupid as AA. Jon Daniels knows better the business than AA and He has very clear in his mind the phrases "positional value" and "surplus value"

 

 

Chris Davis says hello, lol. You put it right though, he's not as stupid as AA.

[ElNik2013]

I really think that one of the best and most creative / efficient ways to "fix" the team in the short term is to deal Bautista.

 

The Rangers are a perfect fit. No, they aren't going to give up Profar for him. But the Jays would be able to ask for Kinsler +, and that plus would come from a fairly deep farm system.

 

Bautista was born in Oct/1980 and he's under contract for two more years at an AAV of 14M + a team option at the same amount.

 

Kinsler was born in June/1982 and he's under contract for four more yeats at an AAV of 15.5M + a team option at 12M (with a 5M buyout that I've included in the 4 year AAV).

 

Bautista is objectively better. In the last 2 years he's produced 7.2 fWAR in just 927 PA. That's a WAR/150 of 5.14. The year before (2011) he was worth 7.7 wins in 655 PA.

Kinsler in the last 2 years has put up just 5.5 total fWAR in 1345 PA. That's a WAR/150 of just 2.82. But the year before (2011), he was worth a lofty 7.3 wins, and he has a couple of nearly 5 win years on his resume before that. So the upside is there.

 

Bautista has been better, but that's why the Blue Jays can justifiably ask for a fair chunk more than just Kinsler. Bautista is also 2 years older and *might* be breaking down a bit, so whether he'll be much better going forward is up for debate. Kinsler has been fairly healthy in the last few years after looking like he might be a somewhat injury prone guy a few seasons ago. He also has 2 more years of control at a not unreasonable rate, which would extend some of the contractual control that Toronto currently has on its core players.

 

It's a lot easier to plug a corner OF hole in free agency than it is to plug a middle infield hole. It's not all about straight wins, sometimes it's about peer relative wins. A 4 win player might be a better option than a 6 win player, if the 4 win guy plays a position where almost all free agent options are more or less replacement level. You can trade your 6 for the 4 + a legit arm/prospect or whatever, then go sign a 2 in free agency to fill the hole you made by dealing the 6, and come out on top.

 

Last 3 years Kinsler has been the #4 2B in baseball, with 12.8 wins.

Last 3 years Bautista has been the #7 OF in baseball, with 15 wins.

 

Bautista also kind of seems like a selfish whiny suckface who might have a bad or weird clubhouse influence (not that I would place any value in conjecture like this).

 

What if they could land, like, Kinsler and Matt Harrison?

or Kinsler and Feliz?

or Kinsler, Ogando, and Luke Jackson?

 

Or anything in that vein.

 

 

I like your idea and it's the type of thinking that will be required to improve the team with the payroll constraints they've given themselves. However, I just don't see AA dealing Bautista, I even think part of the reason for making the trades, starting with the Happ trade, was because they had made promises to Bautista that they would go for it to get him to sign the extension he did.

[Laika]

However, I just don't see AA dealing Bautista, I even think part of the reason for making the trades, starting with the Happ trade, was because they had made promises to Bautista that they would go for it to get him to sign the extension he did.

 

Oh, I totally agree.

 

Unfortunately, with this front office, what they could/should do and what they can/will do are completely different subjects.

[TheHurl]

where is do some move that might sell some tickets...then hope and pray?

[G-Snarls]

I would agree Peach but now that we have gone this far i would choose B and see where we are in July . If not right in it I would gut the team and rebuild

 

Exactly how I feel. This hasn't failed yet. Load up again as best you can this off season. If it's clearly still not working by mid 2014 start dealing guys away at the trade deadline and focus in getting younger and cheaper.

[G-Snarls]

where is do some move that might sell some tickets...then hope and pray?

 

Alex? Is that you??

[Angrioter]

Chris Davis says hello, lol. You put it right though, he's not as stupid as AA.

 

Chris Davis?

The guy who couldn't play 3B or hit the ball?

Davis emerged as a good hitter but he never had a high ceiling as a hitter (Jose Bautista) = luck

[G-Snarls]

Gut/rebuild wouldn't make very much sense given how, uh, in deep the team is already. Doesn't make sense to get in up to your neck and then decide the water's too cold.

 

There are smart and efficient way to trade key pieces for what is needed, trade minor league assets for what's needed, and sign free agents to fill some holes. It won't be easy and I have almost no confidence in the FO's ability to put it all together, but it's not impossible.

 

This is all exactly right. Did we like AA going all in this off season with no thought of the future? No. But now that he's done it and ONE season has failed (mostly due to a crazy number of under performances and injuries) it's not time to abandon ship.

[ElNik2013]

This is all exactly right. Did we like AA going all in this off season with no thought of the future? No. But now that he's done it and ONE season has failed (mostly due to a crazy number of under performances and injuries) it's not time to abandon ship.

 

 

I'm all for making additions given that they've done what they've done, but I'm hoping they go the FA route and keep the young starters that should start at AAA. I seem to remember them claiming that by making the trades they made last off season, they'd become more attractive to free agents, so it's time for AA to sign a good free agent or 3.

[TheHurl]

all I talked about last off season was "what is the plan B if it fails" I didn't see one then and now it is the same, most solid moves left (at least in my mind) are PR nightmares. Really all that's left to do is minor tweaks and hope that improved pitching depth carries you...or even better allows you to trade the veteran starters mid-season. Full rebuild certainly shouldn't happen in the off-season

[GeorgiaPeach]

where is do some move that might sell some tickets...then hope and pray?

 

Abysmal way to run a team.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Exactly how I feel. This hasn't failed yet. Load up again as best you can this off season. If it's clearly still not working by mid 2014 start dealing guys away at the trade deadline and focus in getting younger and cheaper.

 

This off season is make or break.