NHL Thread

[Dr. Dinger]

Just checking on the score. SO glad I stopped watching at 2-0.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

How is this apparent to you? Because I said the Bozak/clarkson signings, the Grabovski buyout, the Raycroft trade, the Kessel trade were bad?

 

So do you seriously think this were good decisions?

 

Please explain to me how I am "full of s***" about baseball. Seriously, do it. I'm dying to hear this.

 

FYI

 

Raycroft was traded well BEFORE the rebuild even started, Grabovski was a move made to free up salary cap. Yes, Bozak and Clarkson were decent signings. I never liked the Kessel trade when it happened it was their one bad move in recent years and even that trade is acknowledged by many to not be so bad anymore. When the trade was made the Leafs expected it was a much lower draft pick, once they wilted that season it was obvious in hindsight the trade could get real bad. However, where they finished in the league that year is also instructive how far they've come from then. Some residual problems like Liles they are living with best they can.

 

Concerning the salary cap, it allowed them to bring in Bolland, Raymond, Clarkson and their new goalie. They all come from winning organizations and with the exception of Clarkson ( so far; I'm not worried ) they've already proven they were good choices. Concerning draft picks, since the debacle of not having any high ones for a while, they've managed to acquire or draft rather well since. Kadri, Gardner, Reilly, Van Reimsdyk ( former #2 pick ) are all part of a great young core for the future. Reimer continues to prove he's a decent goalie ( best save pct in the league prior to today ). Even better, some of their minor league guys and recent lower draft guys are showing potential, the depth of the organization has improved so much in 4 years. The fact we can lose our top two centers and still compete speaks to this.

 

This team is very much built for playoff success and to remain good for several years. This despite having pretty much almost nothing when Burke started to build with and only one season when they had a high draft pick ( which they traded their one bad move ). Edmonton meanwhile built through the draft and remain terrible so far; the luxury of those #1 picks should have reaped rewards by now. Some veteran teams are starting to wilt under the cap while their core gets older.

 

We'll see the next few years how they make out. They have already done far better both this season and last then numerous years prior to 2012. This is a team that missed the playoffs numerous times, and to register two seasons in a row would be major progress. Make a string of playoff appearances the evidence will be overwhelming they made great moves the last few years.

 

But you know, the fact you think Clarkson and Bozak were bad signings suggest you are grasping for something and that's pretty thin. You want to criticize the Kessel move I won't disagree that Burke made a mistake but its not turned out to be horrible. Boston got fed up with Seguin already, and I don't see Dallas doing tremendously well this season.

[GD]

their one bad move

 

oh my.

[havok24]

I'm actually interested to read why you think the Clarkson and Bozak signings were solid transactions by this organization?

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

It's not too early to judge the Clarkson signing. No competent organization hands out a long term contract (7 yrs) at a cap hit exceeding 5M to a 29 year old banger. Buying out Grabovski and using those funds to sign Clarkson was pure stupidity. Deciding to keep a replacement level C over a very good top 6 C was also egregious.

 

Clarkson was a key part of a New Jersey team that always outperformed their supposed talent level, and the league definately thinks he's a much better player then Grabovski ( he was signed late in the game for $3M on a one year deal ). New Jersey was quite willing to sign him for the same money, and Edmonton offered more.

 

New Jersey seems to lack offence this year and Toronto had plenty of offence until Bozak/Bolland went down ( and Kadri missed three games ). That suggests Clarkson is more valuable then you think, they added Jagr who is playing well and they still lack offence.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

You think these were good signings...why? I'm not even grasping at the straws. These were legitimately bad signings.

 

Clarkson contract is probably one of the worst contracts in the NHL.

 

So says you and almost every hockey analyst disagrees with you. And Lou L. is one of the most respected executives in the game and he disagrees with you too. Bozak they needed their biggest weakness was at center. I am reminded about all the s***** pitchers you want the Jays to acquire and Bozak as a #1 center is closer to fulfilling that role effectively ( especially with the chemistry he has with his line mates ) then any of those pitchers would be to being a real #2 starter for the Jays.

 

Again, you are reaching. Declaring these the "worst contracts" is pure hyperbole. When they were signed, the TV crews debated the numbers but most declared Clarkson a great pick up and Bozak slightly expensive but that they needed him.

[havok24]

So says you and almost every hockey analyst disagrees with you. And Lou L. is one of the most respected executives in the game and he disagrees with you too. Bozak they needed their biggest weakness was at center. I am reminded about all the s***** pitchers you want the Jays to acquire and Bozak as a #1 center is closer to fulfilling that role effectively ( especially with the chemistry he has with his line mates ) then any of those pitchers would be to being a real #2 starter for the Jays.

 

Again, you are reaching. Declaring these the "worst contracts" is pure hyperbole. When they were signed, the TV crews debated the numbers but most declared Clarkson a great pick up and Bozak slightly expensive but that they needed him.

 

You know they had a f***ing guy called "Mikhail Grabovski" who is a million times better than Tyler "beer league star" Bozak?

 

lol Bozak has chemistry with Kessel? Aren't you the same poster who was actually bragging about your degree in mathematics from a reputable post-secondary institution?

 

If you actually had a clue or maybe used that to degree to some use, you would know that Bozak has no chemistry with Phil Kessel and the statistical analysis proves it. f***ing hell.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I'm pretty sure that just shows the incompetence of GM's, nothing about the signing. I imagine you think there's no budget in the NHL too? Clarksons contract is golden?

 

New Jersey lacks offense this year because there team is s***. Losing Kovalchuk was a huge blow.

 

I find if kind of funny how sure you are that Clarkson and Bozak are bad contracts. It's truly funny. There hasn't been nearly enough hockey to claim this, and the consensus amongst hockey analysts would range from good contracts to slight overpays. Almost nobody would declare them bad deals at this point. Bozak works well with Kessel. For an example of why this might be important, look at how well the Islanders have played since they shipped out Moulson for Vanek. The best player isn't always the best fit on a team. And Bozak being out of the lineup seems to have had a significant impact on his line mates.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

They only needed him because they bought out a superior player. They actually paid Mikhail Grabovski over $20 million for 48 games. Top-notch front office!

 

Grabovski isn't a superior player. Do you even follow hockey ? He got signed for $3M after lukewarm interest from anybody in the NHL.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

You know they had a f***ing guy called "Mikhail Grabovski" who is a million times better than Tyler "beer league star" Bozak?

 

lol Bozak has chemistry with Kessel? Aren't you the same poster who was actually bragging about your degree in mathematics from a reputable post-secondary institution?

 

If you actually had a clue or maybe used that to degree to some use, you would know that Bozak has no chemistry with Phil Kessel and the statistical analysis proves it. f***ing hell.

 

Complete bs. Gotta call it for what it is. Anyone in the league could have signed him and all he got was one year at $3M. That's reality, the market doesn't lie.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I don't even know what to say to this. I truly don't.

 

That's because you are completely delusional; you actually think your opinion ( based on who knows what ) trumps guys who have been in the game

for decades. I remember clearly when Clarkson was signed, most applauded his signing. There hasn't been nearly enough hockey to change an opinion,

he hasn't played many games at all.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

They only needed him because they bought out a superior player. They actually paid Mikhail Grabovski over $20 million for 48 games. Top-notch front office!

 

Actually, since they brought in some new people, it clearly is a top notch front office. The new players they brought in were great pick ups. And despite some serious injuries, the team wins games. Show me ANY team in the NHL that got better play on resources then the Leafs did bringing in Bolland ( pre-injury ), Raymond, Ranger ( depth ). Now look at some of their org guys that have been filling in or in the AHL, its a pretty good group of back up players.

 

What I'm seeing here is even against overwhelming evidence you'll always go "street" here and fight it like its a brawl. The Jays situation they're an easy mark to criticize them, but the Leafs under Nonis you are fighting a losing battle. It's no contest really.

[havok24]

I find if kind of funny how sure you are that Clarkson and Bozak are bad contracts. It's truly funny. There hasn't been nearly enough hockey to claim this, and the consensus amongst hockey analysts would range from good contracts to slight overpays. Almost nobody would declare them bad deals at this point. Bozak works well with Kessel. For an example of why this might be important, look at how well the Islanders have played since they shipped out Moulson for Vanek. The best player isn't always the best fit on a team. And Bozak being out of the lineup seems to have had a significant impact on his line mates.

 

This has to be the biggest myth out there. What chemistry lol? Bozak is rarely if ever in on any of Phil Kessel's goals. In fact Kessel has produced at a higher rate with a multitude of C's than with Bozak in Toronto. In fact, one of those centres happens to be Mikhail Grabovski.

[havok24]

I can't wait until the 5 year 22.5 M extension David Bolland signs this offseason. Bolland + Bozak + Clarkson = $14 million in third liners. It will be glorious.

 

Two third liners and a beer league hockey player.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

This has to be the biggest myth out there. What chemistry lol? Bozak is rarely if ever in on any of Phil Kessel's goals. In fact Kessel has produced at a higher rate with a multitude of C's than with Bozak in Toronto. In fact, one of those centres happens to be Mikhail Grabovski.

 

Since Bozak left the lineup the team's offence dropped significantly. I haven't looked into this carefully myself but Bozak's chemistry with his line mates was spoken by numerous analysts as a trade off to him not quite being a real first line center. Your beef is with them not me. His contract is less expensive then most "first line" centers.

 

Bigger picture the Leafs made MANY moves and the grand total of those moves was a much stronger team in 2012 and 2013 then the preceding years. It was a great rebuild, the team is more exciting, its younger, and it wins more. If you want to wallow in negativity and declare this a myth go right ahead that kind of thinking has more likelihood of being supported by the Jays under AA.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Two third liners and a beer league hockey player.

 

Funny how much of a difference Bolland and Bozak made to the team's results. Don't let reality confuse your theories though, every good fantasy

needs a good healthy dose of delusion.

[havok24]

Since Bozak left the lineup the team's offence dropped significantly. I haven't looked into this carefully myself but Bozak's chemistry with his line mates was spoken by numerous analysts as a trade off to him not quite being a real first line center. Your beef is with them not me. His contract is less expensive then most "first line" centers.

 

Bigger picture the Leafs made MANY moves and the grand total of those moves was a much stronger team in 2012 and 2013 then the preceding years. It was a great rebuild, the team is more exciting, its younger, and it wins more. If you want to wallow in negativity and declare this a myth go right ahead that kind of thinking has more likelihood of being supported by the Jays under AA.

 

Bozak is a replacement level player. I'm sorry but the Leafs lack of scoring has nothing to do with a guy who is trash offensively. I can't stand Tyler Bozak. He is a symbol of mediocrity and failure. This guy was supposed to be a stop gap but not he is a fringe NHLer locked in long-term. He isn't even remotely good at anything for the exception of being slightly above average on the draws. There are so many guys out there that could do what Bozak does at a fraction of the cost on a short term deal.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

I can't wait for the Leafs to fall to 0.500 and let the air out of everyone's tires.

 

You seem to hang onto any opportunity you can get to criticize Toronto sports teams, whether its warranted or not. This is no team built to succeed short term, we are going to have a winning hockey team more years then not for the next 5 years. Will you go on record to say this is not the case ? Please do. I would like to be able to quote you in 2018 on what you thought about the Leafs roster in 2013.

 

Please fill in the blanks :

 

From 2013-2018, the Leafs will post a winning regular season record __ times in 5 seasons.

From 2013-2018, the Leafs will make the playoffs __ times in 5 seasons.

 

Let's quantify your cynacism.

[havok24]

Dude just please f***ing stop.

[Dylan]

Leafs over the last few years have made terrible signings but many excellent trades.

[havok24]

You seem to hang onto any opportunity you can get to criticize Toronto sports teams, whether its warranted or not. This is no team built to succeed short term, we are going to have a winning hockey team more years then not for the next 5 years. Will you go on record to say this is not the case ? Please do. I would like to be able to quote you in 2018 on what you thought about the Leafs roster in 2013.

 

Please fill in the blanks :

 

From 2013-2018, the Leafs will post a winning regular season record __ times in 5 seasons.

From 2013-2018, the Leafs will make the playoffs __ times in 5 seasons.

 

Let's quantify your cynacism.

 

This team is sporting a -10 shot differential. Please explain to me how that is a sign of a good hockey team? You and I both know that the only reason this team wins on most nights is due to Reimer and Bernier and a bit of puck luck.

[Frag]

Another post on dCorsi.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Usually it's warranted. Toronto sports teams sucks. Terribly run teams. Don't even get me started on leafs fans....the worst.

 

And what I am saying is under Nonis the Leafs have made great moves and improved their team tremendously in terms of current competitiveness and more importantly longer term potential and depth. To claim this team is "terribly run" flies in the face of reality, its delusional. Even BTS, the cynic, is saying he expects them to make the playoffs 3-4 times in 6 years ( including 2012-2013 ). This would be a DRAMATIC improvement on the previous 6 years.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Does he know that?

 

Do you know that they were out shot pretty much the whole season in 2012-13 and the end result was losing to strong Cup contenders Boston in the 7th game of their series within minutes of winning the series ? And that they have lost some games this year that their shot totals were far more favourable ( there is no correlation between winning and the shot differential for this team - not sure if you understand what correlation means ).

 

But you know what, find another team to cheer for, I'm sure we can find a team in the NHL that has a positive shot differential that loses more then they win. Cheer for them.

[Dylan]

Dude, I've told you several times that I'm not a leafs fan. I have 0 reason to be a fan of a s*** team like them. I don't live in Ontario. Who would want to be a fan of a team who gives out those contracts to Clarkson and Bozak?

 

Lucky guy, too bad you chose the jays for baseball lol

[havok24]

Do you know that they were out shot pretty much the whole season in 2012-13 and the end result was losing to strong Cup contenders Boston in the 7th game of their series within minutes of winning the series ? And that they have lost some games this year that their shot totals were far more favourable ( there is no correlation between winning and the shot differential for this team - not sure if you understand what correlation means ).

 

But you know what, find another team to cheer for, I'm sure we can find a team in the NHL that has a positive shot differential that loses more then they win. Cheer for them.

 

If this keeps up, I doubt they make the playoffs. There is still enough time for this team to regress to the mean and crash and burn. Over a 48 game season it could work but not over an 82 game schedule.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

If this keeps up, I doubt they make the playoffs. There is still enough time for this team to regress to the mean and crash and burn. Over a 48 game season it could work but not over an 82 game schedule.

 

So we can quote you on this then at the end of this season. The Leafs have a deeper roster now then they had last season, and last season deeper then the preceding year. It's only common sense that a deeper team is better situated then others for a longer season. There is nothing REAL about this team that suggests a longer schedule is a problem. In fact, they have TWO respected goalies not ONE, and while it may be argued that we lack some quality on defence ( debatable ) we certainly have more depth ( Liles can't crack the team, we often have a pro sitting out every game from the defence ).

 

I would suggest to you that after the Olympics, we may have a full lineup. We'll revisit this at that time, how they are supposably caving in while other much older teams will supposably be better then ever.

[jays_fever]

3 picks. 2 1sts and a 2nd. Not that great of a trade.

 

so now you go from a terrible trade to not that good? They got a young offensive star at a decent cap hit for picks. It doesnt matter who "won" the trade in the end. People like to just bash the leafs for the f*** of it.

[havok24]

So we can quote you on this then at the end of this season. The Leafs have a deeper roster now then they had last season, and last season deeper then the preceding year. It's only common sense that a deeper team is better situated then others for a longer season. There is nothing REAL about this team that suggests a longer schedule is a problem. In fact, they have TWO respected goalies not ONE, and while it may be argued that we lack some quality on defence ( debatable ) we certainly have more depth ( Liles can't crack the team, we often have a pro sitting out every game from the defence ).

 

I would suggest to you that after the Olympics, we may have a full lineup. We'll revisit this at that time, how they are supposably caving in while other much older teams will supposably be better then ever.

 

I'd feel better about this team if they had kept Grabo, let Bozak walk, and not sign Clarkson. They also should have tried to bring back MacArthur (cheaper and only on a 2 year term). Looking at what this team did in the summer, it is pretty evident that they overreacted to one game (game 7 against the Bruins). This F.O. is terrible.

[Nox]

CHP Troll's Notes

 

-Tyler Bozak makes Phil Kessel better

-The hockey market is efficient

-Shot differential has no correlation on point totals for the Leafs only

 

Any other key points I'm missing?