DuckDuckGose

Oh, no doubt. It's not inflating his BABIP. That being said they will put more balls in play which means more hits which will lead to more runs. That's what was happening to Drew and then he had some bad luck on top of it.

I like JA Happ a lot, one of the best FB's of any LHP in the MLB. I think he's going to have a career year and be a true #2 for the Jays. So maybe we just like different styles of pitchers. I like guys that can pitch off the FB, gives guys multiple looks and change speeds and that's how I see Maeda. I do appreciate that he is somewhat unknown and that Japan has less talent than the MLB but I'm fairly confident in his ability to get the SO by switching speeds and staying ahead in the count. Kind of like Marco Estrada. You've made me look at Maeda a bit differently though and I've changed my stance a bit. I still think he's a great fit but I'm not convinced that he's a guy they should be spending $100M on. For Happ or Estrada money it would still make a lot of sense.

Hutch isn't going to put up a +.320 BABIP every year but I disagree with the sentiment that hittable pitches are an illusion. We hear about pitchers making missing spots or getting lucky when they hang a breaking ball and the batter swings through it, etc and we know that tthose pitches are in fact more hittable. Drew consistently missed his spots last year and left a lot of balls over the plate. If you make a lot of mistakes MLB hitters are going to get a lot of hits -- that's what happened to Hutch last year. It seemed entirely mental and I'm very confident he'll get past it but he was hittable and it was not an illusion.

. When did Beeston ever outright lie to fans? Honestly, I can't remember that ever happening and when it comes to a grass field he was more than open about where they were in the process (far away and no-guarantees) every time it came up. Shapiro is a master of the corporate non-answer runaround. He talks but there is no substance in his words. It's intentionally vague (as it should be).

Well if you want Otani then adding Maeda now wont hurt! Otani is a beauty though, would love to land the Japanese Babe Ruth.

I don't want to argue with anyone and I'm not moving the goal posts to a fictional argument. I thought Maeda was a good fit, saw zero conversation about him and thought others on here would enjoy the discussion.

Thanks for the reasoned response North. I read a Badler article that pegged Maeda's floor as a #4/5 SP but stated that there could be some upside there. The thought was that if his stuff translates as well as Tanaka's he can be a #2. Obviously, I became a Youtube scout at that point and liked what I saw. Like other Japanese pitchers he throws multiple FB's (he can hit the mid-90's but he's a low 90's pitcher) and he pairs that with a slider, changeup and curveball all of which he can throw for strikes. Overall I liked his stuff but none of the secondaries are wipeout pitches which further enforces the belief that he wont be an ace like Tanaka or Darvish. I found a Fangraphs article trying to find a MLB comp for Maeda and they came up with an Aaron Nola comp mostly based on their FBs and Changeups. Another Fangraphs article places his talent level between Jordan Zimmerman and Rick Porcello coming up with a Gallardo comp (and the numbers were shared in an earlier post). Gallardo is a guy that I view as a #3 but IMO Maeda's numbers suggest he'll BB less batters and SO batters at around the same rate as Gallardo. Which put him in solid #2 territory (Gallardo would costa pick and I don't see Shapiro surrendering his first given where the farm is at). Maeda's numbers in Japan are behind Tanaka and Darvish but they are ahead of Dice-K and Iwakuma both of which had MLB success. Iwakuma is a solid #2 and that's where I'd peg Maeda right now.

If refusing to perpetuate ignorant group think makes me argumentative and bitchy then so be it. Let's remember that I came here to discuss Maeda and all I've gotten back is that he's signing on the West Coast, Rogers wont spend the money and a tirade of dissent against the old management team and moves they made over 3 years ago. Obviously that wasn't the kind of discussion I was hoping for when I posted.

What do you want me to do? You can make a list of all the high level baseball people that have nothing but praise for Beeston and his work. You can pretend that you know better than them but let's be real no one on here does. So I'll listen to the people with actual insight and give s*** replies to s*** posts.

I didn't realize you could judge a man's competency without leaving your house.

His job isn't to email people, he sits in meetings all day. Assistants take notes and send emails for him; not a big deal and has nothing to do with being a dinosaur. You can accomplish just as much by picking up the phone as you can by sending an email.

Why would any one care about that? He has a team of assistants that would.

He had just been promoted to AGM from scouting director. I forget the scout's name and obviously he's the one who deserves the bulk of the credit but AA was absolutely involved in that decision. JPR couldn't scout/draft/develop for s*** which is why AA was promoted to AGM in the first place. They absolutely do. They're a contender with their most important pieces locked up long term. No guarantee they'd be in that position w/o those trades but they're there now. That's a false narrative and of course it was a strategy. AA intentionally acquired FA's to game the system for picks. It's one of the reasons they changed the comp system. Yes you were. Look you did it again. The reality of the situation is AA built a contender. He didn't take the most efficient path but he got there and that's what matters most. Look you're doing it again Moved the franchise towards their goal of a perennial playoff contender. You're talking on the field product which isn't the same. They're going to be close. Cubs have better pitching, Jays have the better offense. Injuries will be a big factor and the Jays have more depth at this point. Look, you're talking about it again. You've made multiple points on AA's tenure and JD/Tulo don't make up for the trades in terms of efficiency but in terms of results they absolutely do. And the Jays are one of the best teams in baseball entering 2016 and have a strong outlook going forward.

If you remember correctly Halladay had a no-trade clause and had limited himself to a couple teams of which the PHI were the only real trade partner. AA did a good job of getting value back with his back against the wall. He deserves some credit for that but that's not what I said. I said moist GM's don't make a deal that big in their career. And AA had just come off his promotion from scouting director to AGM. He deserves some credit for that. Are you complaining about that? It was an amazing strategy. JD and playoffs makes up for it. Every GM makes bad trades though. No one has made a point other than to look at Shapiro's body of work in Cleveland. I find it ironic that you are trumpeting the same horn but failing to look at the entirety of AA's work the same way you do with Shapiro. No I said the moves were only made possible because AA gamed the draft and international market until the rules were changed. I'm not denying he made a couple bad moves but every single year AA was at the helm the franchise took a step forward; which is exactly what you want from a GM. They'll certainly be close if they're not as good or better. Well I was more excited for playoffs. Also JD FFS; the pinnacle of affordable building blocks. If he's as good as AA/Beeston we should all be happy. I believe he can and should be a little better than that duo and very much looking forward to watching the next few years unfold.

I'm really not being hard on Shapiro at all. I just don't think he's done anything to make me believe he's heads above Beeston/AA or that things will be much different under his command. I know the off-season is young and believe he will add at least one more piece. I believe Maeda should be the prime target. I'll be disappointed if he stands pat but, I fully agree with whoever posted earlier (Sammy?) that sometimes the best move is to not pull the trigger. Avoid bad deals and keep pushing the franchise forward and I'll be quite content.

ftfy

I agree Shapiro > Duquette and Williams but I also don't think either were ever actually coming to Toronto. . Can't you say this exact same thing about AA? Maybe only one executive of the year. Ya but that was because of that f***er John Farrell. AA was up against a barrel and made a bad trade. It happens and it was very opportunistic of CLE to take advantage of the situation. Good on them. Most of those moves came out of necessity because they couldn't afford to resign the players. When you're selling stars in their prime for prospects every year you're going to end up with a lot of good young players. Again, good on Shapiro for going this route and being opportunistic. He had to do that in CLE and he recognized that. Let's also remember that Edwin and Jose are coming off the best contracts in MLB thanks to AA. I don't think an iceberg was coming. I think AA was going to build the farm back up and be right back at it but given the past trades I understand the opinion.

d'Arnaud, Synder, Alvarez, Hech, deScalafini, Nicolino. All of whom AA added to the franchise -- so lambast him for teh deals but understand they wouldn't have happened if AA wasn't so good at building a system to begin with. . Well the 2016 Jays should be as good as the Cubs and with prudent management they should both be contenders for the foreseeable future. ..... I think you're delusional if you don't think AA improved leaps and bounds over his time in Toronto. That's what you would expect from a young GM though. I'm looking at overall trends from '09 - '15, I suggest you do the same. Yup, because you came in with bias and refuse to see past it. I'll do you one better. I'll listen with an open mind and formulate my own opinions. I'm having a conversation which by definition has to have two streams of input. I understand that you don't have much to contribute outside of rehashing other's views and opinions but that doesn't mean the rest of us are incapable.

I didn't see alternatives and we have Ed Rogers to thank for that. Worked out pretty well in the end. Only real negative was that AA walked when he should've been the workhorse for the new president's vision.

And what in his past history makes him a god-send? I'm honestly curious and would love to be enlightened.

Sure but why did the plan change? IMO Rogers was a large part of that and the same pressure will exist under Shapiro. When Cleveland pressured Shapiro to contend he signed Swisher and Bourn... Again, I think Shapiro will be good but he's not infallible or a god send. He's a decent president with a difficult ownership group. Certainly, not on Holland's or Bowman's level. That being said Lou is a hockey legend. Dubas is one of the brightest young hockey minds on the planet and Babcock is an elite coach. Shanahan needed to surround himself with people like that he recognized it and made it happen. I love that. The best thing Shanahan did was bring in guys like Shapiro (Dubas, lots of success with a minor league team, heeeyooo Cleveland!) to help him out. That's why I love him he doesn't pretend to have all the answers but knows he has the resources to figure it out.

When it comes to excitement absolutely. A bad move is still more exciting than the status quo that's human nature. No doubt about that, The JD and Tulo trade made up for it though. That David Price contract is a prime example. Completely agreed but that was also years ago an early on in AA's tenure. IMO one of AA's best qualities was that he learned from his mistakes and improved year-over-year. I feel that we took on all of the pain of grooming AA only to let him walk when he was hitting his stride. AA was a bad GM in '09 but he was an entirely different executive by the end of this season.

What are you basing that on? All he's done is let Price walk (rightfully so), traded Hendriks for Chavez (meh move) and signed Atkins, Happ, and Estrada (which all look like pretty good signings). Most of those moves were probably LaCava anyways and at this point I'm pretty confident the team would look very similar with Beeston, LaCava and AA at the helm.

Hey, we agreed on something!

I'm not touting Beeston as a brilliant abseball mind but he was a good president and quite competent at his role. Ultimately, he served his purpose of ushering in a new era and it was time to move on. It's not like he hindered the Jays in any way. It was always what do you need and then how can he help and then he got it done. Which is exactly what the club needed from him.