General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[The Cats Ass]

If Bo misses more games they have to go with Clement, right? He's been a top 30 bat in AAA this year and has continued to hit in the majors. There is no sound reasoning to start Espinal over him.

[Brownie19]

If Bo misses more games they have to go with Clement, right? He's been a top 30 bat in AAA this year and has continued to hit in the majors. There is no sound reasoning to start Espinal over him.

 

This would certainly seem like a good time to roll with Clement and see what happens. Hard to be worse than Espi right now.

[Laika]

If Bo misses more games they have to go with Clement, right? He's been a top 30 bat in AAA this year and has continued to hit in the majors. There is no sound reasoning to start Espinal over him.

 

If Espinal gets ONE more start this year for the Blue Jays, I will riot

[Laika]

How good has Genesis Cabrera been for the BlueJays this season? He hasn't allowed a single earned run in 18 appearances.

 

16.1 IP, 7 H, 0 ER, 12 K, 2 BB. A quietly elite pre-deadline pickup by Toronto.

 

It's like the reverse Brad Hand

[Brownie19]

You can give it another year with the core. But you're risking going into Bo's final season with no extension. And the roster is set to change a lot regardless of the outcome of this season. Maybe less on the pitching side but I expect LF, 2B and 3B to look dramatically different next season. Whether that's in house or players from coming from the outside

 

It's relevant in all sports. You can't lose star players for nothing. It happens in all sports. It literally happened with Juan Soto and Mookie Betts. Those teams traded those players not because they wanted to but because they had to.

 

1. Everyone expects LF, 2nd and 3rd to look dramatically different next season - Chapman, KK and Merrifield all look like poor options to re-sign.

 

2. Washington was a mess that needed to rebuild. And trading Mookie Betts was a crippling move by the Red Sox. They didn't have to move him, they f***ed up by giving other players too much and it's blown up in their face. Trading Bo and Vlad right now would be similar to the Astros trading Kyle Tucker and Bregman. Or the Brewers trading Burnes, Woodruff and Williams. Find the 90+ win team that's right in the middle of their contention window that is trading their best player.

 

I mean obviously there are risks in keeping our top players as they approach free agency and if we do lose them for nothing (and can't replace them with FA's) than that would certainly push us into a rebuild/retool phase - but throwing in the towel right now sends a terrible message to the team and to future FA's. It seems highly doubtful that any GM in baseball would do that with this team.

[Brownie19]

It's like the reverse Brad Hand

 

That's a good way to put it. I mean obviously Cabrera isn't this good, but in SSS, you never really know what you're going to get. A good example of how sometimes the results are out of the GM's hands.

[Spanky__99]

It sounded to me like JS is going to use Clement as a super utility guy from the way Dan and Buck were explaining it.

[Spanky__99]

That's a good way to put it. I mean obviously Cabrera isn't this good, but in SSS, you never really know what you're going to get. A good example of how sometimes the results are out of the GM's hands.

 

No doubt, Brad Hand was used for 8.1 IP with the Jays, his leash wasn't very long. Cabrera already has twice the workload with excellent results, flip a coin, s***. lol

[deanmike]

If Espinal gets ONE more start this year for the Blue Jays, I will riot

 

Espinal shouldn't even be on the active roster right now, or even when rosters expand in September. The team playing Schneider and Clement at 3B/SS with Bo and Chapman both hurt tells you exactly what they think of Espinal right now, but they should take it a step further. Atkins should option Espinal for Orelvis today, with 6 of the team's next 8 games projected to be against LHP starters. It should be easy to get a bat like Orelvis into some games consistently over this next stretch and see what he's got, especially with rosters about to expand in 3 days.

[The Cats Ass]

If Espinal gets ONE more start this year for the Blue Jays, I will riot

 

I'd rather have Kirk start at SS than Espinal.

[MikeM3]

How good has Genesis Cabrera been for the BlueJays this season? He hasn't allowed a single earned run in 18 appearances.

 

16.1 IP, 7 H, 0 ER, 12 K, 2 BB. A quietly elite pre-deadline pickup by Toronto.

 

Even Pete Walker a couple bottles deep could tell him, hey maybe throw the sinker to lefties not righties

[Laika]

Even Pete Walker a couple bottles deep could tell him, hey maybe throw the sinker to lefties not righties

 

The lag on St Louis becoming a bad organization was frustratingly long.

 

I dunno what kept them hanging onto being good for the last 5 years.

 

I guess just a weak division and probably a few really good "old school" baseball people.

[jaysblue]

If Bo misses more games they have to go with Clement, right? He's been a top 30 bat in AAA this year and has continued to hit in the majors. There is no sound reasoning to start Espinal over him.

 

Trade back for Paul DeJong

[BigCecil]

How good has Genesis Cabrera been for the BlueJays this season? He hasn't allowed a single earned run in 18 appearances.

 

16.1 IP, 7 H, 0 ER, 12 K, 2 BB. A quietly elite pre-deadline pickup by Toronto.

 

Said this last night in GDT. He is just quietly eating outs for us. He has been the pick up and then some that Hand wasn't in 2021.

[Zacman]

Any word on Bo? I can't find anything.

[Spanky__99]

Any word on Bo? I can't find anything.

 

Just that he was getting an MRI done late yesterday afternoon.

[MikeM3]

The lag on St Louis becoming a bad organization was frustratingly long.

 

I dunno what kept them hanging onto being good for the last 5 years.

 

I guess just a weak division and probably a few really good "old school" baseball people.

 

It truly is incredible.

[Laika]

It truly is incredible.

 

Within like 19 days one offseason they:

 

- traded Randy Arozarena for Matthew Liberatore

- traded Adolis Garcia for cash considerations

[Zacman]

Just that he was getting an MRI done late yesterday afternoon.

 

Thanks bro, usually they are pretty quick releasing the results...

 

A little worrisome.

[Spanky__99]

Thanks bro, usually they are pretty quick releasing the results...

 

A little worrisome.

 

Sending him for an MRI at 5:00 PM yesterday, sent me red flags(why so late?). Worrisome indeed.

[max silver]

Low key hope the Nats come in town and sweep.

 

I want this roster to get absolutely nuked in the off-season.

 

Honestly man go f*** yourself with ******** comments like this. You have a propensity for saying really stupid s*** at the best of times but this takes the cake.

[max silver]

1. Everyone expects LF, 2nd and 3rd to look dramatically different next season - Chapman, KK and Merrifield all look like poor options to re-sign.

 

2. Washington was a mess that needed to rebuild. And trading Mookie Betts was a crippling move by the Red Sox. They didn't have to move him, they f***ed up by giving other players too much and it's blown up in their face. Trading Bo and Vlad right now would be similar to the Astros trading Kyle Tucker and Bregman. Or the Brewers trading Burnes, Woodruff and Williams. Find the 90+ win team that's right in the middle of their contention window that is trading their best player.

 

I mean obviously there are risks in keeping our top players as they approach free agency and if we do lose them for nothing (and can't replace them with FA's) than that would certainly push us into a rebuild/retool phase - but throwing in the towel right now sends a terrible message to the team and to future FA's. It seems highly doubtful that any GM in baseball would do that with this team.

 

The Red Sox f***ed themselves over by insisting that David Price be included in the Betts deal in order to save a bit of money.

[Jonn]

Honestly man go f*** yourself with ******** comments like this. You have a propensity for saying really stupid s*** at the best of times but this takes the cake.

 

It’s really not my fault you’re an angry person. There’s a few people here that just get so angry over comments and it’s hilarious.

 

I can love the Blue Jays and not like the team. I just don’t think current group of players enjoyable to watch. It kinda sucks waiting around to see if Bo can carry the offense and now its not even Bo its Davis Scheneider. I miss fun. I miss homers. God forbid someone vents frustration without being hostile towards someone else.

[max silver]

It’s really not my fault you’re an angry person. There’s a few people here that just get so angry over comments and it’s hilarious.

 

I can love the Blue Jays and not like the team. I just don’t think current group of players enjoyable to watch. It kinda sucks waiting around to see if Bo can carry the offense and now its not even Bo its Davis Scheneider. I miss fun. I miss homers. God forbid someone vents frustration without being hostile towards someone else.

 

Even you shouldn't be so dumb that you wouldn't realize that actively cheering for your team to lose during the most important stretch of the season isn't going to be received with open arms. This team is going to see a lot of turnover this offseason due to the large amount of expiring contracts anyway so there's no need to cheer for them to lose in order to satisfy your own sense of self loathing.

[Jonn]

1. Everyone expects LF, 2nd and 3rd to look dramatically different next season - Chapman, KK and Merrifield all look like poor options to re-sign.

 

2. Washington was a mess that needed to rebuild. And trading Mookie Betts was a crippling move by the Red Sox. They didn't have to move him, they f***ed up by giving other players too much and it's blown up in their face. Trading Bo and Vlad right now would be similar to the Astros trading Kyle Tucker and Bregman. Or the Brewers trading Burnes, Woodruff and Williams. Find the 90+ win team that's right in the middle of their contention window that is trading their best player.

 

I mean obviously there are risks in keeping our top players as they approach free agency and if we do lose them for nothing (and can't replace them with FA's) than that would certainly push us into a rebuild/retool phase - but throwing in the towel right now sends a terrible message to the team and to future FA's. It seems highly doubtful that any GM in baseball would do that with this team.

 

You make good points and I certainly understand the view point. And seemingly if you sneak in anything can happen. The Jays are right there… but I question if it’s enough and I also question the decision to build around Bo and Vlad. Everything hinged on them being Stars. Bo mostly has been one although he’s been up and down despite getting his hits. Vlad outside of his outlier 21 has been slightly above average bat for his career so far. But his defense has absolutely cratered this Season. Not saying he wasn’t a bad one last year but he’s been unplayable bad this year.

 

I think it’s important for franchises to recognize when a group of players might be good but not good enough to ever win anything. Even if you have to take a step back. It’s better to do that than going all in on a good but not great team and falling short time and time again. I really don’t want to see this franchise crater to the bottom of the Standings if and when this all blows up.

 

Missing the playoffs would be an absolute disaster for this group but it looks like they will at this point. As I said in previous post I love the Blue Jays. I don’t love this roster. And in my opinion I don’t feel they can do it. People are gonna be upset about that. They are going to say it’s negative and ********. But I’m entitled to that opinion. And on message board express that opinion. And you are much open to disagree and debunk my opinion. I think we can do that without calling someone dumb or a piece of s***. Or toxic… just my thoughts. Enjoy being here and debating. Maybe I just like playing Devils Advocate more than others and that’s fine.

[Spanky__99]

I'll roll with... *Jonn's Dumn!*

[Jonn]

Even you shouldn't be so dumb that you wouldn't realize that actively cheering for your team to lose during the most important stretch of the season isn't going to be received with open arms. This team is going to see a lot of turnover this offseason due to the large amount of expiring contracts anyway so there's no need to cheer for them to lose in order to satisfy your own sense of self loathing.

 

You understand the term “low key” right. I don’t actually want them to lose or cheer against them. Think of it more of putting the group out of its misery and ensuring changes. I highly question the roster decisions and its hard to just blindly support it. Scheneider despite his success struggling to get into the lineup. People were calling me an idiot just a month ago for going on rants on why he should be even promoted in the first place. But more than that it’s continued decision to roster Espinal when theirs young options absolutely thriving in the Minors. Most of whom are already on the 40-man. Its a lot of the little things that have made this Season very not enjoyable. Sorry if that’s negative? Like I’m just calling it as I see it. This organization make’s some really f***ing dumb decisions that shoots them in the foot. 2021 to this day is very heart breaking for me and I’m sure many others. I’m not asking for perfection. Just do the little f***ing things to give yourself the best chance to be successful. I don’t feel they do that often enough.

[jaysblue]

Even you shouldn't be so dumb that you wouldn't realize that actively cheering for your team to lose during the most important stretch of the season isn't going to be received with open arms. This team is going to see a lot of turnover this offseason due to the large amount of expiring contracts anyway so there's no need to cheer for them to lose in order to satisfy your own sense of self loathing.

 

You freak out way too much man and get all pissy when someone criticizes this team. I don't agree 100% with everything Jonn said. All he was saying is that the Jays should look at trading some valuable assets to replenish their system if they fail at making the Postseason. I don't think the Jays should trade off guys like Gausman or Bo after this season if they fail to make one of the WCs. I still think they have a window in 2024 and 2025 to make some noise with this group. This offseason will be very important.

 

Reality is if the Jays fail to make the Postseason this year, you have to start asking serious questions about some core players and the front office. If the Jays underachieve again in 2024, and fail to sign Bo to an extension, you have to look at trading some key veteran pieces before they become FAs and lose them for nothing. Common sense. If this team doesn't succeed in 2024, what makes you think 2025 will be any different with this same core? If the Jays miss the Postseason in 2023 and start off poorly in 2024, Atkins is likely gone anyways.

[max silver]

You understand the term “low key” right. I don’t actually want them to lose or cheer against them. Think of it more of putting the group out of its misery and ensuring changes. I highly question the roster decisions and its hard to just blindly support it. Scheneider despite his success struggling to get into the lineup. People were calling me an idiot just a month ago for going on rants on why he should be even promoted in the first place. But more than that it’s continued decision to roster Espinal when theirs young options absolutely thriving in the Minors. Most of whom are already on the 40-man. Its a lot of the little things that have made this Season very not enjoyable. Sorry if that’s negative? Like I’m just calling it as I see it. This organization make’s some really f***ing dumb decisions that shoots them in the foot. 2021 to this day is very heart breaking for me and I’m sure many others. I’m not asking for perfection. Just do the little f***ing things to give yourself the best chance to be successful. I don’t feel they do that often enough.

 

Why would you even state that you "low key" hope they lose if you didn't actually want them to lose? Low key wanting them to lose still means you want them to lose after all. Change is coming no matter what, and given how this offense has struggled to click all season long there is no chance that there won't be some major changes happening in the off season, whether it's mostly roster changes, coaching philosophy and/or coaching staff chances, front office changes etc.

 

The current offensive environment in AAA needs to be factored into the success of the AAA team this season as it makes it pretty tough to know which players down there are going to be able to enjoy immediate MLB success vs those who are being propped up by an environment that makes even mediocre hitters look like stars. The automatic strike zone being utilized in AAA this season sounds like it's about the size of a postage stamp so the hitters have gained a huge advantage from this. For instance Orelvis Martinez has produced an .872 OPS in AAA so far but this only translates to a 109 WRC+ after all.

[Jonn]

You freak out way too much man and get all pissy when someone criticizes this team. I don't agree 100% with everything Jonn said. All he was saying is that the Jays should look at trading some valuable assets to replenish their system if they fail at making the Postseason. I don't think the Jays should trade off guys like Gausman or Bo after this season if they fail to make one of the WCs. I still think they have a window in 2024 and 2025 to make some noise with this group. This offseason will be very important.

 

Reality is if the Jays fail to make the Postseason this year, you have to start asking serious questions about some core players and the front office. If the Jays underachieve again in 2024, and fail to sign Bo to an extension, you have to look at trading some key veteran pieces before they become FAs and lose them for nothing. Common sense. If this team doesn't succeed in 2024, what makes you think 2025 will be any different with this same core? If the Jays miss the Postseason in 2023 and start off poorly in 2024, Atkins is likely gone anyways.

 

I honestly don’t expect a lot of people to agree. I know it’s unpopular opinion but at some point these decisions have to be made. This group is going to get expensive. You have to identify if its the group that can do the job for the money they will be paid. We don’t want to be stuck in the middle with an expensive roster.

 

You also have to factor in players egos where control isn’t everything anymore. Players dictate more about where they go more than ever. Gausman could turn around this off-season and ask for a trade and all of a sudden everything changes. He’s already blown up in the media once. You don’t think if September goes well that could potentially ger worse. This team had expectations of winning the division and now they couldn’t even hold onto Wild Card 3.

 

You have to look at things from all angles. The vibes in that clubhouse aren’t great. Were 5 months into we’ll just wait until they start hitting.