Around Baseball 2015

[Boxcar]

Everyone knows he had a good career before 'supposedly' taking steroids but as soon as you do take steroids your legacy and credibility is tarnish. Don't see why that's lost on some. Plus we don't know exactly when he started juicing.

 

Cool. Hank Aaron's home run record is void too, then.

[Jimcanuck]

I'm sorry, where have I denied that he used PEDs? Also, he defeated it partly by being the best player ever.

 

That's up for debate. Babe Ruth has more career WAR in 400 less games and likely exceeds his peers by a larger amount than Bonds did his.

 

In roughly the same number of games, Willie Mays amassed 14.5 less WAR than Bonds. Would a steroid taking Mays make that up? Quite possibly.

 

Frankly, taking steroids has taken Bonds out of the discussion on greatest player.

[Atothe]

That's up for debate. Babe Ruth has more career WAR in 400 less games and likely exceeds his peers by a larger amount than Bonds did his.

 

In roughly the same number of games, Willie Mays amassed 14.5 less WAR than Bonds. Would a steroid taking Mays make that up? Quite possibly.

 

Frankly, taking steroids has taken Bonds out of the discussion on greatest player.

 

Ruth did not play against the same level of competition. So if Bonds get as asterisk then so does Ruth. Mays has legitimate claim considering his missing time to military service.

[Boxcar]

That's up for debate. Babe Ruth has more career WAR in 400 less games and likely exceeds his peers by a larger amount than Bonds did his.

 

In roughly the same number of games, Willie Mays amassed 14.5 less WAR than Bonds. Would a steroid taking Mays make that up? Quite possibly.

 

Frankly, taking steroids has taken Bonds out of the discussion on greatest player.

 

First off, I'm in the camp that doubts the greatness of Ruth. Sure, he was much better than everyone he played against at the time but the level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. Second, then you'd have to assume that Mays would be taking steroids along with almost the entire league. When Bonds was juicing, everyone was juicing.

 

And how do you start a post with "that's up for debate" and then directly contradict it at the end?

[Jimcanuck]

Ruth did not play against the same level of competition.

 

Doesn't the historical WAR calculation take the level of competition into account and demonstrate rather conclusively Ruth was far better than his peers than Bonds was of his?

 

You can't have a greatest player debate and throw out whole generations of players based on 'level of competition'.

[Jimcanuck]

First off, I'm in the camp that doubts the greatness of Ruth. Sure, he was much better than everyone he played against at the time but the level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. Second, then you'd have to assume that Mays would be taking steroids along with almost the entire league. When Bonds was juicing, everyone was juicing.

 

And how do you start a post with "that's up for debate" and then directly contradict it at the end?

 

Not everyone was juicing when Bonds was.

 

IMO, Bonds' juicing (and a lot of it apparently) means there is no way to compare him to others. We can certainly have a debate using players that have not admitted or not been caught juicing. Statistically, Bonds would be treated as contaminated data and thrown out.

[Boxcar]

Doesn't the historical WAR calculation take the level of competition into account and demonstrate rather conclusively Ruth was far better than his peers than Bonds was of his?

 

...no. It shows that Bonds was pretty much just as good in that context. The argument is that Bonds had to play against blacks, latinos, Japanese. The player pool was much bigger. Ruth played against guys who worked on a farm.

[Boxcar]

We can certainly have a debate using players that have not admitted or not been caught juicing.

 

Cool, then we can have a debate about Bonds.

[BTS]

Not everyone was juicing when Bonds was.

 

IMO, Bonds' juicing (and a lot of it apparently) means there is no way to compare him to others. We can certainly have a debate using players that have not admitted or not been caught juicing. Statistically, Bonds would be treated as contaminated data and thrown out.

 

That's an impossible game to play because we have absolutely no idea who was on steroids.

[jays_fever]

Doesn't the historical WAR calculation take the level of competition into account and demonstrate rather conclusively Ruth was far better than his peers than Bonds was of his?

 

You can't have a greatest player debate and throw out whole generations of players based on 'level of competition'.

 

I think the point is that there wasnt much of any real competition back then (i.e bunch of out shape white men flailing at a ball). It's much harder to be that much better than your peers today with a much larger player pool than it was back then.

[Jimcanuck]

...no. It shows that Bonds was pretty much just as good in that context. The argument is that Bonds had to play against blacks, latinos, Japanese. The player pool was much bigger. Ruth played against guys who worked on a farm.

 

That's certainly fair. Offset somewhat by the larger number of teams today, diluting the talent pool.

 

You made an absolute statement Bonds is the greatest baseball player. I am saying you can't make the statement. Mays, Williams (missed 3 years for WWII, sandwiched 10 WAR seasons before and after the war service), and others all have a good case.

 

Williams is an interesting one, 130 WAR over his career and would have added ~30 WAR during those war years, bringing him right up with Bonds.

[Jimcanuck]

That's an impossible game to play because we have absolutely no idea who was on steroids.

 

True, but its not my game. Boxy is the one with absolute statement that Bonds is the greatest.

[GD]

True, but its not my game. Boxy is the one with absolute statement that Bonds is the greatest.

 

Yes, very funny. It's so refreshing that when Barry Bonds does anything, down come a bunch of super original steroid jokes.

 

Such a shame most people refuse to appreciate, arguably, the best player of all time.

 

 

One would think the Bill James of pavement could read

[Grant77]

Non-tender candidates:

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/11/non-tender-candidates-7.html

 

Lots of interesting guys there.

 

I'd absolutely love to bring in Brandon Moss, he's a great fit for us.

 

Lots of interesting 'pen arms, including guys like Furbush, Alburquerque, Hagadone, and Rzepczynski. Henderson Alvarez too.

[o2cui2i]

Yes, very funny. It's so refreshing that when Barry Bonds does anything, down come a bunch of super original steroid jokes.

 

Such a shame most people refuse to appreciate, arguably, the best player of all time.

 

A lot of people either aren't old enough or ignore the fact that he was amazing BEFORE THE STEROIDS. He was so much fun to watch in the outfield when he was a young skinny kid running everything down and throwing out runners like a sniper. Roids gave him a little bit more power but his mechanics were great from a very young age.

[Boxcar]

That's certainly fair. Offset somewhat by the larger number of teams today, diluting the talent pool.

 

You made an absolute statement Bonds is the greatest baseball player. I am saying you can't make the statement. Mays, Williams (missed 3 years for WWII, sandwiched 10 WAR seasons before and after the war service), and others all have a good case.

 

Williams is an interesting one, 130 WAR over his career and would have added ~30 WAR during those war years, bringing him right up with Bonds.

 

How can I have made an absolute statement when I used the word "arguably"

[Boxcar]

One would think the Bill James of pavement could read

 

Thx bud, u get a discount on Carlos Santana.

[GD]

Thx bud, u get a discount on Carlos Santana.

 

How can I get a discount when he's already droppable

[Jimcanuck]

I'm sorry, where have I denied that he used PEDs? Also, he defeated it partly by being the best player ever.

 

One would think the Bill James of pavement could read

 

Sure.

[GD]

So you want him to preface everything he says with "arguably" then

 

k

[Boxcar]

Jim Canuck is arguably the most argumentative poster.

 

I arguably ate breakfast this morning

 

Your arguably dumn

[Jimcanuck]

Jim Canuck is arguably the most argumentative poster.

 

I arguably ate breakfast this morning

 

Your arguably dumn

 

What an infantile post

[Boxcar]

What an infantile post

 

Don't talk in absolutes, Jim

[Jimcanuck]

In 2004 Bonds had a .609 OBP. I don't give a f*** what he was on, that is insane. You could put most MLBers on the best s*** on the market and tell them the f***ing pitches before they come and they still wouldn't get to .609.

 

Ted Williams, not on PEDS, .553 OBP in 1941.

[Jimcanuck]

That's like .60 points less. That's the difference between Bautista and Pillar ffs.

 

Bonds for his career had a .444 OBP, Williams is 0.482 despite missing 3 of his prime years to WWII.

[Atothe]

Bonds for his career had a .444 OBP, Williams is 0.482 despite missing 3 of his prime years to WWII.

 

Okay

[Jimcanuck]

I'm not arguing Williams vs. Bonds. I'm just sick of hearing the Bonds/steroids thing. Of the likely thousands of MLBers who did steroids, none came close to some of the stuff Bonds did. It's because he was always more talented.

 

Agreed. And no one came close to Williams either.

 

Actually, look at career offensive stats, Williams > Bonds in most categories. Defensively a whole different story. Then you have Willie Mays, who excelled in every aspect of the game.

 

There is no way to draw conclusion on who was the best. But Bonds, Mays, Williams, Ruth have to be in any top 5.

[Spanky__99]

Jim Canuck is arguably the most argumentative poster.

 

I arguably ate breakfast this morning

 

Your arguably dumn

 

Hahahaha... too funny!

[GD]

What an infantile post

 

You're arguably the arguable leader in arguably infantile argumentative posts.

[Boxcar]

Ted Williams, not on PEDS, .553 OBP in 1941.

 

How do you know Williams was not on PEDs?