Dan Shaughnessy and BBWAA are a joke.

[Angrioter]

Casting his votes for the Hall of Fame

 

OK, time to fill out the Hall of Fame ballot. I’ve been staring at it long enough. Procrastinating. Hoping maybe new information would surface. Maybe the rules would change. Maybe I’d get clarity pills for Christmas.

 

No. Nothing has changed. The ballot has to be mailed by the last day of the year. So, here goes . . .

 

I am voting for Jack Morris, Curt Schilling, Frank Thomas, Tom Glavine, and Greg Maddux.

 

This means I am not voting for (among others) Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Mike Mussina, Rafael Palmeiro, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Lee Smith, Sammy Sosa, Alan Trammell, and Larry Walker. And I know that a case can be made for all of the above.

 

 

I’ve been voting since 1986 and I truly miss the good old days when we argued about home runs, batting averages, ERAs, World Series performances, All-Star Games, and a player’s dominance at his position in his era. Things were so much simpler then. Saying yes to Ron Santo or no to Jim Kaat was a serious baseball debate. This was before PEDs and WAR and ALDS and Deadspin buying a Hall of Fame ballot. Now there is so much to consider, it makes one’s head explode.

 

So, let’s pass go, collect $200 (or send it to Deadspin), and advance directly to Rule 5 of the ballot. Rule 5 is the charge that makes it virtually impossible to cast a ballot with a clear conscience or a logical argument. Rule 5 makes it almost impossible to be consistent. Rule 5 makes voters look like jackasses. Rule 5 takes all the fun out of voting. Rule 5 gives me the feeling smokers get when they see the surgeon general’s warning on a pack of smokes.

 

Rule 5 states: “Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contribution to the team(s) on which the player played.’’

 

Got that? Integrity, sportsmanship, and character.

 

Now I don’t know your thoughts, but my position would be that there is probably no group on this planet less equipped to pass judgment on folks’ character than the membership of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America (BBWAA).

 

Tea Party and ACLU members think they are targets for ridicule? Try being a member of the BBWAA. Baseball season stretches from February to October, but it is always open season for harpooning the BBWAA. We are a group incapable of unanimous agreement on the Hall of Fame candidacy of a player such as Willie Mays. We give Jim Rice 29.8 percent of the vote in his first year on the ballot, then ultimately elect him with more than 75 percent of the vote. We cannot get all members to agree that today is Sunday. This promotes the image of The Lodge. Now we have Deadspin standing up for Everyfan, purchasing a ballot from a thus far anonymous (big surprise there) BBWAA member.

 

Even the ballot itself is hideously old-timey. No online voting for the BBWAA. Our Hall ballot looks like something that was used at the Groton Town Hall when voters had to choose between Andrew Jackson and John Quincy Adams in 1828.

 

Now that all of that is out of the way, let’s go back to the 2013 candidates for admission to Cooperstown.

 

Morris is a holdover vote. This is his 15th and final year on the ballot. He got 67.7 percent of the vote last year. The sun-starved stat geeks hate him because — according to the new metrics — winning games and pitching well in clutch situations is wildly overrated. His ERA (3.90) is too high. He is probably not going to make it.

 

Schilling inspires good baseball debate. The second half of his career was much better than the first. His 216-win total is shy for Cooperstown, but he was one of the great strike machines of the modern era and his postseason dominance is beyond question. I consider a vote for Schill a demonstration that BBWAA members do not use the ballot to settle scores. Sometimes I think I vote for him because I can’t stand him.

 

Thomas, Glavine, and Maddux are on the ballot for the first time. All have Hall numbers. None was tainted by the steroid era.

 

The numbers are obvious. Thomas hit 521 homers, same as Ted Williams and Willie McCovey. Glavine and Maddux were 300-game winners. Those are magic plateaus . . . unless you cheated.

 

Nobody thinks Glavine or Maddux cheated. That’s probably because of their body types. Glavine looked athletic, but nothing out of the ordinary. Maddux looked like he played slow-pitch softball. He should be unanimous. But, of course, he won’t be unanimous.

 

Thomas had a Popeye body, but was never suspected of being a ’roids guy. Lucky him.

 

This is where we go off the rails. Like Thomas, guys such as Piazza and Bagwell have Hall of Fame numbers and never tested positive for PEDs. But they look dirty. Something doesn’t make sense. Thomas makes sense.

 

This is where it gets unfair and subjective. I don’t vote for the PED guys, so it’s easy to say no to Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro. They have positive tests and/or admissions and/or multiple appearances in the Mitchell Report. Piazza and Bagwell have none of that. They just don’t look right.

 

The rest of the list of players I reject are good old-fashioned baseball arguments. Biggio got 68.2 percent of the vote last year, but I don’t think of him as Hall-worthy (only one 200-hit season). Same for Mussina and his 270 wins (he always pitched for good teams) and Smith and his 478 saves (saves are overrated and often artificial). Not voting for Raines and Martinez also feels totally unfair. I just never thought of them as Hall of Famers. They fail the “I know it when I see it” test.

 

It would be easy to vote for all of them. But the Hall is for guys who were more than very good. It’s for those who dominated at their position in their time. And it’s in the eye of the beholder.

 

Let the arguments continue . . .

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/12/29/time-cast-his-votes-for-baseball-hall-fame/ojPVH3NSylmZg1vJAGW6fJ/story.html

[dineke]

http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/images/dan_shaughnessy.jpg

[LunchBox]

The next member of the BBWAA to even mention PEDs should have their ballot permanently rescinded.

[Angrioter]

Voting for Jack Morris over Mike Mussina should be a fireable offense. Mussina is one of the best pitchers ever and deserves to be in.

 

Kevin Brown >> Mussina

[TwistedLogic]

Stupid motherf***er. A massive thank you to Jason Collette for crucifying this f***ing dickpole:

 

http://jasoncollette.com/2013/12/29/something-doesnt-make-sense/

 

He voted for both Raines and Trammell last year, and yet he let them both fall off his ballot this year, despite still having five open spots on it. He completely bullshits the part where he says Mussina played for winning teams, and after admitting he has absolutely no grounds to not vote for Piazza and Bagwell besides his stupid "eye test", he votes for Thomas despite admitting he looked like Popeye. He discredits saves as an over-rated and fake stat, but gives votes based on wins. He talks about the good ole' days when they argued about home runs, BA and ERA, but he leaves out Biggio who had 3,000 career hits because he "didn't have a 200-hit season".

 

It's just f***ing disgusting that men (not really men) like this are even employed in the baseball industry, let alone responsible for who gets into the Hall of Fame. What a f***ing travesty.

[havok24]

[Angrioter]

Mussina pitched about 300 more innings and compiled about 8 more fWAR. they're really close, but I'd take Mussina.

 

Best five season (WAR)

Mussina - Brown

5,8 - 6,4

5,2 - 6,6

6,9 - 6,2

6,2 - 9,0

5,4 - 6,0

5,9 - 6,8 <--------Avg

[P2F]

Shaughnessy and the BBWAA belong together. Cut from the same retarded cloth.

[jays_fever]

"Piazza and Bagwell have none of that. They just don’t look right."

 

You guys caught this part right..it looks like something Keith Law would sarcastically tweet.

[Angrioter]

Now do 10 worst seasons!

 

Best five season (WAR)

Mussina - Brown

1.7 (12 GS) - 1.6 (33 GS)

2.7 (25 GS) - 3.8 (25 GS)

3.1 (27 GS) - 2.6 (20 GS)

2.8 (30 GS) - 1.5 (13 GM)

2.9 (27 GS) - 2.5 (22 GS)

13.2 (121 GS) - 12 (125 GS) <------2,1 - 2,0 per 30 GS

[GeorgiaPeach]

I must've missed something. Because I clearly remember Piazza always not looking too big, normal actually and Thomas being a tank coming out of college until he retired.

[TwistedLogic]

Best five season (WAR)

Mussina - Brown

5,8 - 6,4

5,2 - 6,6

6,9 - 6,2

6,2 - 9,0

5,4 - 6,0

5,9 - 6,8 <--------Avg

 

A Hall of Fame case can't just be based on a player's peak though. You have to take the player's entire career into account. Over their entire careers, Mussina was worth significantly more than Brown. It isn't really a detriment to Mussina's case that he played more, because the fact is that he did play more. Playing time is a skill, and Mussina was able to play long enough to post 9 more wins than Brown. That's a fact. I believe they're both no-doubt Hall of Famers, but I like Mussina more than Brown.

[Angrioter]

A Hall of Fame case can't just be based on a player's peak though. You have to take the player's entire career into account. Over their entire careers, Mussina was worth significantly more than Brown. It doesn't really matter who played more, because the fact is that he did play more. Playing time is a skill, and Mussina was able to play long enough to post 9 more wins than Brown. That's a fact. I believe they're both no-doubt Hall of Famers, but I like Mussina more than Brown.

 

Oh?

ALA Koufax (58 WINS)?

[jayswin11]

My Ballot

 

1.Maddux

2.Glavine

3.Mussina

4.Thomas

5.Clemens

6.Bonds

7.Smith

8.Biggio

9.Raines

10.McGriff

 

if I had more votes they'd be in this order

 

Trammell

Mattingly

Morris

McGwire

Sosa

 

Whoever doesn't vote for Maddux however should not ever get to vote again.

[Angrioter]

Koufax is a different case because he retired in his prime.

 

Brown was better pitcher than Mussina....Mussina was more consistent.

[TwistedLogic]

Oh?

ALA Koufax (58 WINS)?

 

I said that a Hall of Fame case can't be just based on a player's peak. Peak isn't everything but it is still a major factor.

 

Pedro isn't really in this discussion because he is clearly superior to both of the player's we've been discussing, and isn't really a valid comparison.

That said, both of the player's you mentioned had such incredible peaks (Koufax especially) that it dwarfs their lesser playing time.

 

It's sort of like if Mike Trout were to continue playing as well as he has for the next five years, and then retired, he should still be a definite Hall of Famer.

[P2F]

My Ballot

 

1.Maddux

2.Glavine

3.Mussina

4.Thomas

5.Clemens

6.Bonds

7.Smith

8.Biggio

9.Raines

10.McGriff

 

if I had more votes they'd be in this order

 

Trammell

Mattingly

Morris

McGwire

Sosa

 

Whoever doesn't vote for Maddux however should not ever get to vote again.

 

No Bagwell? Dude belongs in the Hall.

[TwistedLogic]

Brown was better pitcher than Mussina....Mussina was more consistent.

 

BTS simply said that he would take Mussina over Brown. I would as well. That doesn't mean either of us (I can't speak for him) think that he was the better pitcher. Brown was clearly the better pitcher, but as you said, Mussina was consistent enough that ultimately, his career resulted in significantly more value than Brown's. Again, consistency is a skill. It can't be overlooked.

[TwistedLogic]

Brown averaged 4.51 fWAR/200 IP and Mussina averaged 4.63. Brown's 9-win 1998 season was better than any Mussina had, but I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call him the better pitcher.

 

This is where I somewhat disagree with you. Mussina had the far better K/BB and he had superior defense, which likely inflates his fWAR a bit, but Brown had the better ERA, ERA-, FIP, FIP-, xFIP and SIERA. Seems every metric besides WAR liked Brown more, and even in WAR, he wasn't that far off.

[GD]

Mussina had the far better K/BB and he had superior defense, which likely inflates his fWAR a bit

 

I don't follow your point here, to chime in. fWAR is FIP based. Nothing to do with defense.

[TwistedLogic]

I don't follow your point here, to chime in. fWAR is FIP based. Nothing to do with defense.

 

Would the better K/BB% not inflate his WAR? If it's just based on FIP, I'm not sure how Mussina had the better WAR/IP since Brown's career FIP was significantly better.

[TwistedLogic]

I actually like WAR here because they correct for league factors. Mussina pitched his entre career in the AL East and Brown spent 7 years in pitchers' parks in the NL.

 

They both had the same career BABIP and same career LOB%, but Brown allowed far fewer home runs and had a 13% GB higher than Mussina. I could see the divisional difference playing a role, but it's a bit unfair to Brown to say he might have been much worse in the AL East parks.

[Frag]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/12/29/time-cast-his-votes-for-baseball-hall-fame/ojPVH3NSylmZg1vJAGW6fJ/story.html

 

Hey Dan:

 

[GD]

Would the better K/BB% not inflate his WAR? If it's just based on FIP, I'm not sure how Mussina had the better WAR/IP since Brown's career FIP was significantly better.

 

I was talking about the part that you mentioned superior defense.

 

I think there's a run environment adjustment involved in fWAR. Like, almost positive. Brown had a 79 career FIP- and Mussina an 81 career FIP-, which solves some of the huge difference. What else could there be? Hmm.

[Angrioter]

Brown averaged 4.51 fWAR/200 IP and Mussina averaged 4.63. Brown's 9-win 1998 season was better than any Mussina had, but I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call him the better pitcher.

 

Mussina 3.68 ERA, 3.57 FIP, 3.69 xFIP

K Brown 3.28 ERA, 3.33 FIP, 3.57 xFIP

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/comparison.aspx?playerid=642&position=P&page=9&players=837

[GD]

I actually like WAR here because they correct for league factors. Mussina pitched his entre career in the AL East and Brown spent 7 years in pitchers' parks in the NL.

 

To be more specific as a pedantic bastard, not league factors, run environments, I thiiiiiink. I tried to make a WAR calculator once upon a time and got pretty f***ing close to exact. It involves adjusting FIP for run environment, then converting that run-environment adjusted FIP to an RAA form, and so on.

[GD]

There is. And park adjustment. Both help sway things in Mussina's direction despite Brown having the better ERA and DIPS.

 

Oh s***, yeah, you're right, FIP involves homers. Is FIP- park AND run environment adjusted? Because if it's only one and not the other, that probably explains the WAR/IP difference.

[Angrioter]

There is. And park adjustment. Both help sway things in Mussina's direction despite Brown having the better ERA and DIPS.

 

Oh s***, yeah, you're right, FIP involves homers. Is FIP- park AND run environment adjusted? Because if it's only one and not the other, that probably explains the WAR/IP difference.

 

Mussina .95 dingers/9, -45% GB rate

K Brown.57 dingers/9, +50% GB rate

[GeorgiaPeach]

To be more specific as a pedantic bastard, not league factors, run environments, I thiiiiiink. I tried to make a WAR calculator once upon a time and got pretty f***ing close to exact. It involves adjusting FIP for run environment, then converting that run-environment adjusted FIP to an RAA form, and so on.

 

f*** we've got a CNN Hero on our hands here. Elementary school prodigy cracks WAR breakdown.

[John_Havok]

Now I don’t know your thoughts, but my position would be that there is probably no group on this planet less equipped to pass judgment on folks’ character than the membership of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America (BBWAA).

 

Tea Party and ACLU members think they are targets for ridicule? Try being a member of the BBWAA. Baseball season stretches from February to October, but it is always open season for harpooning the BBWAA. We are a group incapable of unanimous agreement on the Hall of Fame candidacy of a player such as Willie Mays. We give Jim Rice 29.8 percent of the vote in his first year on the ballot, then ultimately elect him with more than 75 percent of the vote. We cannot get all members to agree that today is Sunday. This promotes the image of The Lodge. Now we have Deadspin standing up for Everyfan, purchasing a ballot from a thus far anonymous (big surprise there) BBWAA member.

 

Even the ballot itself is hideously old-timey. No online voting for the BBWAA. Our Hall ballot looks like something that was used at the Groton Town Hall when voters had to choose between Andrew Jackson and John Quincy Adams in 1828.

 

It would be really admirable of him to point this out as a negative, if he didn't spend the rest of his article being a prime example of it.