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But, Mr. Troller, wins might indicate whether you are good battling under adversity, which is what you said and I replied to. If you don't want to talk about battling under adversity as a sign of merit in a pitcher, don't post it. Some might say constantly battling under adversity might indicate some control issues. Rather then just miss the plate and walk people, like Romero, you might just throw that 2-0 pitch straight down the pike and see it launched out of the SkyDome. But that never happens to Johnson, does it ?

Ricky Romero battled hard last year too, even getting 9 wins despite having no control at times. What's he worth this year ? You know, baseball has a lot of vets on bad contracts because they got their deal signed coming off nice seasons. My objection is signing a guy for big money that is on a terrible season, and hasn't had a "great" season since 2010. Would it really surprise people if he was bad or injured again next year ? What is expected from a $14M per season pitcher now a days ?

He's a 30 year old pitcher with injury problems that limited him to 320 inning total since 2010. He's got one win this season and an era almost 6. He looks totally lost on the mound, approaching the state Romero was last year in terms of confusion. Show me ANY pitchers in the league with similar stats that will be offered a $14M contract next season. I have a better idea though. Show me a convincing argument that he's worth $14M. The idea that losing him for nothing is the argument is absurd. Just because he's on the team doesn't mean you need him at any price.

WHIP 1.566 vs 1.674

Johnson's stats this year aren't much better then Romero's were last year.

I'm not impressed with the Marlins, a lot of young talent in the majors and almost none of it landed on their team. Five years from now I'd be surprised if they were a .500 team on any season. With the Braves good almost every year, the Nationals with some young talent, the Phillies maybe spending big, and the Mets maybe rebuilding smarter, how good can the Marlins really do ? Wouldn't want to be a Marlins fan. Who has better young talent, the Nationals, Mets, or Marlins ?

The good news is the way Lawrie is starting to look hitting. Sure, his injuries and false starts have given him a bad batting average etc, but its nothing unusual given the number of AB and turmoil. I remain optimistic that he'll be one of their bright spots next season.

Lind only because they can't move Cabrera and they have needs. Johnson I just want him gone so they don't feel obligated to sign him again.

Still not impressed. You'll have to try harder. I've followed baseball for decades. I knew the American League inside out numerous years because I was an avid rotisserie player ( extended line ups ). Somewhat dated because our pool ended when I drafted M. Rivera as my 40th pick the last season ( his rookie season ). So while I'm not tracking every minor league prospect and roster situation like I used to, I still understand how real baseball guys tend to manage their teams. As an avid Bill James fan, I was also well aware of good stats and bad stats, etc etc . I wouldn't normally post any of this, but frankly you are challenging my background and I'm not putting up with it. I also still play ball despite my age. Let's see what the Jays actually do. I bet they don't trade away Janssen and Delebar. If they trade ONE of them I nailed their move. I'd also like to see them move Bonofocio, Lind, and Johnson, but suspect AA won't do it. btw If you don't take me seriously I'm fine with it. Please ignore my posts entirely.

18/20 and the two blown saves weren't losses for him. Pretty good season on a team not presenting many save opportunities. These guys always have value, especially at his contract price. Delebar might be good but who knows for sure. Santos/McGowan/Cecil/Walker are all heavy gambles. Cecil already seems to be wearing out, Walker is pretty old for a "rookie", Santos/McGowan have chronic injuries. I don't mind trading Janssen or Delebar for value. Its the idea of trading both of them I can't see. Throw in Cecil I'm even less interested.

No, I still think your full of s***. I have a hard time caring what you think at this point. Post something intelligent I might change my mind. King is clearly a troll in every sense of the word. I hold very little hope for him. And when I first posted here I was quite reasonable. Its not me recommending extreme overhauls of the roster that to be blunt rarely happen for any team ( the Marlins trade was not a regular event ). What I saw was a board full of recommendations to overhaul the entire Jays team when team policy is quite the opposite. I suggested some more limited moves would be worthy of discussion. This is not arrogance, its simply reflecting on reality.

Still trolling I see. Surprise me and say something intelligent about baseball.

There is no contradiction. Both occurred. I won't hold your hand explaining this, you need to try harder. On this lineup, Davis even against right handed pitchers was a more effective player. Cabrera was a LF with almost no range and he's become a glorified singles hitter. Bonofocio has been hopeless.

So good to see all you really care about is hitting upon a semantics error and repeatably posting based on that phrase. Of course, maybe this is somewhat of an improvement on the people suggesting they trade their whole bullpen away. Or not what I just said. I'm not impressed with the quality on this forum so far. Lot of trolling and absurd theories about baseball trades that are going to happen.

Its a business, all these guys made good money and if you don't perform you get canned. I agree somewhat though that AA is starting to look like the real problem. So how do you address this ? Well, AA has only a week now to make some deals and then maybe some roster moves. Give Gibbons the somewhat altered roster and see if he can win with it.

Not what I saw. His management of the batting order has been terrible all year. His choice of who plays has often been poor. To me, it looks like he tries too hard to make everyone happy and get them all playing time. This is not how the best teams operate. Even considering the points you made, they came far too late, well after everyone knew they needed to happen. Bonofocio was in the lineup regularily for a long time. JPA is no better then a 8th or 9th position batter, but he was slotted much higher on numerous occasions. Bautista at #2 spot was not a good decision. Cabrera in left instead of Davis was a mistake made numerous times the first few months. The only positive I can see is bullpen use. But even there I am seeing there might be a red flag. He likes to go one inning per pitcher far too often. Taking guys out that just put in a few strong outs was a regular occurance. But I'll give him some credit in this area regardless. Bottom line is this team needs some changes and its a lot easier to change the manager then flip the team.

If AA was on top of things he'd have fired him in May. This is the common theme though, AA doesn't deal with his mistakes very well ( eg Gibbons, Bonofocio, Johnson ). So the way this plays out is AA gets fired end of season. His replacement will drop Gibbons and Johnson immediately. And given that the new GM has a fresh start to change the team, I think Arencebia will be released as well. AA is pretty much forcing managements hand by refusing to address trouble spots as they occur. The only way this doesn't play out is if AA makes decisive moves NOW. His job is on the line this month.

Seriously, any trade involving a stopper involves understanding how the Phillies value Papelbon. Not a hard concept to understand, but perhaps you are more of a basketball fan.

Read the first page. Pay particular attention to YOUR posts.

That was my impression from his first few posts I read; my mistake for taking him seriously when he denied it. The bottom line is the Jays won't be trading their entire bullpen away as no less then 3 or 4 people have suggested on this thread.

You know, if you really want to go to war with your extremely limited knowledge of baseball I'll destroy you. Seriously, its not hard to see you are a casual fan with very little of a handle to what major league teams do in practical terms. The chances of the Jays trading all of Delebar, Janssen, and Cecil is ZERO. Ok, you heard it here first. Sorry to break it to you is isn't going to happen. The chance they trade or release two middle guys is decent. The chance that they trade ONE reliever who could potentially close is moderate but there are so many reasons that it won't happen. So I choose to discuss the possibility that they trade one reliever. You can spout off about your fantasy of them trading all three.

The major leagues have had a shortage of reliable closers pretty much every year for 30 years. So no matter how much you think the supply is bountiful on guys who MAY fill that role, in actuality the guys who DO fill that role is something else. I'm not sure why I'm discussing this because past history supports my argument easily and people are being blinded by short term overanalysis of the Jays.

This discussion goes nowhere if people can't distinguish between a relief ace and a middle reliever. The discussion started with the idea of trading away every relief ace and relief ace prospect on the team except Santos. Who are the people who want to hoard middle relievers, beyond AA and Gibbons ? If people think getting a relief ace is easy, well here's a quick observation. The Phillies are going nowhere this season and their ace is on a huge contract. They don't want to move him. That and AGAIN my observation about how the Jays had an absolutely horrible "bullpen by committee" very recently. And addressing your other point, the Jays don't need to blow up their bullpen in entirety to fill their holes. They are only 2 or 3 good roster moves from having a World Series caliber team. Your point would have much more validity if they were a really bad team on a 5 year plan to improve.

Dennis Eckersley was also a failed starter yes. So was a guy in Atlanta. Again, the idea that a good reliever is easy to find is a compete myth. I'm not sure why such myths have incredible staying power on these message boards.

Ok, I'll answer this. The Jays remain on "contendor mode" for 2014. Janssen is both effective and cheap for 2014, and if his injuries become an issue there is no long term risk. The Jays have too many middle relievers. However, Delebar is on the best season of his life and is expendable. I believe he'd be attractive right now. Oliver isn't even worth discussing he is of limited value to anyone, they can move him its not material. Since we don't know what anybody will offer for any of these guys, I can only offer a starting point and if it changes to Janssen instead so be it. I just cannot ever fathom moving both of them as being smart, and if not you there are others on here clearly recommending trading all of them.