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My dead grandmother>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gibbons Some f***in' hobo addicted to crack, heroin and meth>>>>>>>>>>Gibbons

Gibbons is nowhere near smart enough to get Happ out. He'd rather wait til we're down a run or two.

I wouldn't even give him 4 years at 50 million pesos.

I know we have to mix and match this lineup with all the injuries but having a useless fat homer like Navarro hitting cleanup is simply inexcuseable and embarassing. I'd honestly rather see them hit Rasmus or Fransisco cleanup. I honestly cannot stand looking at that quadruple chinned bastards face period.

And this is what happens when you get idiots like Reyes popping up a bunt ahead in the count with a runner at second and nobody out. And a fat slob like Navarro hitting cleanup? Who can't do his job and get a runner in from third with less than 2 out. You don't play sound fundamental baseball and it comes back to bite you in the ass big time.

Wow, I honestly thought that was a pop up that one of the infielders was going to catch. That's ridiculous that a ball hit like that goes out of any major league park. Even sadder is that you've got no power hitters like Ichiro and Cervelli both hitting their first homeruns of the seasons against our staff, over 100 games into the season.

He seems to be learning at the plate though and hitting the ball a little harder. The only reason I'd even consider Kawsaki is his value in the clubhouse and to the fans. But Goins is flat out the best defender and anybody who thinks he belongs in double A needs to get themselves checked out for.......nevermind. Goins defense is a plus 2 WAR and over a full season, most likely more. The difference between Kawasaki's and Goins offensive WAR is less than 1. Defense wins games and pennants in the long run along with good pitching. Guys like Goins who turn DP's better than just about anyone else makes your pitching better. Unless we;'re depending on offense from that position, I still think it's automatically Goins.

Don't even compare their hat size dude!! The keyboard jockies on here will be telling you you're comparing them in every way right down to which way their nuts descended!

There isn't enough evidence for either guy. 2 months is nowhere NEAR enough of a sample size to put a label on him. Halladay was one out away from throwing a no hitter and had a few similar sample sizes of similar length before he eventually regressed and had to go all the way back to retool. What makes me laugh are all these people who make fun of others for their views, yet profess to know that Stroman is the real deal and pretend to know how far ahead of Sanchez he is in his progression. I'll have to find the link to the articles I read a while back, but from what I've read and seen, Sanchez is very coachable and eager to learn and Stroman is much more fiery, cocky and hard to coach for that reason. Being fiery and cocky can be a good thing in a pitcher, but NOT necessarily a young one. Young playersa with that attitude often think they know everything and aren't willing to learn from more experienced players and coaches. Either way, Stroman has made 10 big league starts, so peoples love affair with him on such a small sample size is no more unrealistic that what people are saying about Sanchez.

Who the f*** cares if he does? Let him do what he's going to do and hopefully he learns from it. Anyone who wants to make you a bet based on his first ML experience with a 30 inning sample size is a complete f***ing moron anyways. People need to stop assuming the worst out of our young talent and encourage them instead. Let him get the experience and let him fail so hopefully he can learn from it.

Who cares if he walks the bases loaded? The fly by your pants hero fans that post on this board? I don't care if he has a 150 inning sample size and an era of 6.5. He needs that experience to grow, just like Roy did. I don't care if he gets bombed every time out. He's a young pitcher and that's bound to happen. People who complain about dumb s*** like that have obviously never played the game. The board and the organization acted the same way with Henderson Alvarez and I was shocked by all the s*** that people were saying about a first year guy going through his growing pains. I follow every start he makes with Miami, and IMO he is going to win 20 games one season down the road. He has that filthy movement on his fastball and just needed more time to develop his secondary pitches. Now he's getting it down there and has a no hitter under his belt already. But these "boards" were ready to hang him and that shows how much a lot of these people actually know about baseball. My guess is that they've never played it competitively and have no clue what it's like to get out there and struggle, or what's it's like to face guys throwing 94 plus 10 days in a row, then face a few junkballers that f*** up your timing and your swing. Sanchez will grow and people need to STFU and be patient with the kid. f***, if we gave up on Roy way back when he got sent back to A ball, look what we would have missed out on.

Seriously wondering what people think. My position is that this team doesn't depend on 2b for offense, and they don't get much from any of the three. goins is flat out worlds superior defensively than either guy. The runs that Goins saves with his defense, are they outweighed by the offensive output that kawasaki or Tolleson give you over Goins? Over a full season, I don't think either guy gives you anything significant over Goins. None of the three are even what you would consider an "average" MLB hitter. Kawasaki definitely is great for the clubhouse. To me, Goins is your starting second baseman. If everyone played defense like him, our team would be miles and miles better. He saves our team outs, which is just as important as a catcher who can frame 3rd strike calls. The runs he saves is more than the difference of his inferior offensive output to either player.

This has quickly turned into the best of the "one liners" thread. A couple of pretty good, and yet sadly valid ones. Guess the joke is on the jays.

Hehehehe, nice...and very very very true.

Yeah, Stieb made a living off that pitch. It's devastating to both lefties and righties. I think if either guy could learn to throw a James Shields type changeup or a Halladay type cutter, they'd be f***ing dynamite. But I guess that's asking for a bit much, lol. I'm just glad this kid is up. If these guys aren't going to compete this year, I'd like to see them lose a bat or two and go younger like Tampa has. Give up that bat who'll get a team into the post season and get some good young pitching in return. I've just had enough of them being caught in between. They have that nucleus of Stro, Hutch and Sanchez....and a few up and comers like Norris, Nolin and Mcgiure. Just keep piling it on and let them get experience at this level early on. Not too early, but I'd rather watch guys develop through a couple of painful years in order to have a team like Tampa has with 5 good pitchers to throw out there on a yearly basis. f***, Tampa is getting themselves back into it, after being a laughing stock early on.

You're right but Stro has nowhere near the movement that Sanchez has on his fastball. Stro is going to be much more prone to giving up the long ball IMO. The slider is a good pitch, but also much more prone to being thrown in the dirt as well. From what I've read and seen, Sanchez has much better command of his breaking ball and Stro with the fastball. And we all know that without fastball command, you're in trouble. But IMO, give Sanchez Stro's fastball command and you get a superior pitcher. I think Sanchez's stuff is just flat out better, has more movement and slightly better velocity. I am glad we have them both for sure but I think Sanchez is more likely to become a no.1 than Stroman is. I would much rather face Stro than Sanchez. When you get a pitcher throwing a fastball at 98mph that sinks and darts like Sanchez's does? He's either going to be a complete stud or a complete dud.

That's true dude, but if you look at guys like Darvish for example, he get a lot of outs with that breaking ball because he locates his fastball well when he's on. It's rare to see a curveball that kinda looks like a wiffle ball. That's why I made the comment with Kershaw because he has that exact same kind of curve that drops so fast and hard it looks like it's falling off a table. It freezes guys cos they either think there's no way it's going to be a strike, or they completely flinch and freeze up. The more you induce guys to swing, the more likely they are to make contact and if you hang one, you speed up their bat to the point where it's just a complete ball mash. Guys like Blyleven made a career out of freezing guys and buckling their knees with strike 3. The difference with a guy like Buehrle though is that sanchez has that free and easy 97 mph heater that also moves. Also, Stro's curveball is more of a 12-6 curve where sanchez has that 2-8 tilt to lefties which causes them to give up on it a lot and will buckle the knees of righties a lot because they get that instantaneous fear of getting hit by a 98 mph fastball. That 12- 6 curve usually only fools hitters when they're either guessing fastball or the movemnt is really good. Sanchez's curve and his extra fastball velocity and movement will almost automatically induce more called strike 3's and weaker cuts. You see the cut that guy takes at that pitch where buddy is trying to use it as some kind of example of how good his curve is I guess? The cut that guy takes PROVES my point, he just happens to swing and miss because STRO gets it down. When he doesn't, it is MUCH more likely to get hit hard than the type of curve Sanchez throws I know from experience that when a guy has enough fastball to embarass you, that tilted curve will beat you more often than not, even when you think it might be coming. The chances of squaring it up are much less than that traditional 12-6 curve. That tilted curve, even when it gets hit, will result in more rolled over ground balls to pull hitters as well. You have to hang it belt high with mediocre movement for it to get hammered and the scouting report on this kid is that he consistenlt keeps it located extremely well. But the thing is and ALWAYS has been that if you can't locate or establish your fastball, your secondary pitches don't matter. Maddux was a f***ing BEAST and master at locating his fastball, then inducing weak ground ball after ground ball with his secondary pitches and he never threw much over 90, even early in his career. IF Sanchez learns to repeat his delivery and establish fastball command, his ceiling is about as high as it possibly goes because his curveball is an ABSOLUTE wipeout pitch. I only made that comparison to that ONE PITCH as far as Kershaw goes but in no way am I saying he's going to be another Kershaw or anything of the sort. But if he learns good command of his fastball, he can be as devastating as anyone in the game today. ESPECIALLY command on the inside half to right handed hitters. When you get a guy throwing at you at 98mph and you see that tilted curve coming, it's really f***ing hard, even for average MLB hitters, not to flinch or take weak swings at that 2-7 curve. A lot of the time, your first instinct is to back away because that velocity keeps hitters honest to say the least. Sorry to be repetitive but if he learns inside command to righties, he going to be f***ing devastating. This kid just needs to learn how good his stuff actually is. I'd just f***ing love to see Halladay work with him.

I don't get what that's supposed to prove? That hitter took a healthy cut at that pitch and wasn't out front. It has nowhere near the same snap or movement that Sanchez has on his. If that guy connects, that ball is getting mashed. I'd rather have a guy who throwas a pitch down in the zone that either A) freeezes the hitter and he gets called out swings and hits a weak pop up or rolls over on a ground ball From what I've seen from Sanchez, he has excellent command low in the zone with his curve. It's in the scouting report and we saw about six of them tonight that were all down in the zone, almost in the EXACT same spot. He locked two guys up that could do nothing but watch as they were beaten by his fastball and overmatched and frozen by his curve. If Sanchez had anywhere near the command Sto has with his fastball, he'd be a superior pitcher. Stroman's fastball is pretty straight and Sanchez's sinks and darts all over the place. I've seen Stro hang his curve a LOT and I've seen it get mashed on at least a dozen occasions. Lets wait and see what happens with Sanchez and lets see how often hitters even make solid contact off of it. I'll make you a bet that Sanchez's curve gets more strikeouts and doesn't get hit anywhere near as hard due to his command with the pitch low in the zone. I swear on my mothers life I'll pay you off dude if I'm wrong, no f***ing around. Sanchez has a better curve hands down.

Well, I played for a few years and from my own perspective, it actually means MORE when you lock a guy up with it. When guys made me flinch, with the fear for just a flash of a second that the ball was going to hit me, then the realization that it's a curve, locks you up cos you realize it's too late to pull the trigger.That's the mark of a great curve. Burt Blyleven was a master at it. He'd buckle knees and even get guys ducking out of the way of strike 3 calls. When a guy takes a healthy cut at your curve, unless he's either way out front or misses hitting it by a good foot or so, it really doesn't speak much to the validity of the pitch. Stroman has enough movement to get that swing and a miss, but Sanchez has that curveball that just locks you up and we saw it twice tonight. Neither Nava or Drew had a chance, they were both completly fooled and overmatched. The less you can get guys to swing at a pitch you can throw consistently for strike 3 speaks volumes. Especially in situations where you need that strikeout with a guy on third and less than 2 outs, or bases loaded and 1 or even nobody out. Sanchez has that curveball that will get hit way less because hitters won't swing at it as often. Swinging strike 3's are great but when you've got a guy like sanchez with the movement and command he has of that pitch? When he gains command of that fastball, or IF he does, I think his ceiling is far higher than Stromans. I'd rather face Marcus 100 times out of 100

Very well put. I think this team really does need to stand pat and let their prospects develop. Even lose a few guys who have high trade value as a big bat going forward to other teams and build up our pitching prospects again. I think Stroman, Hutch and Sanchez are guys to build around. We just need to wait it out and see what happens going forward. If we could add a few young stud pitchers at the cost of either a Bautista or Encarnacion, then I'd be all for it.

Exactly, he has a MLB ready curveball that he can throw low in the zone on a consistent basis. Stroman doesn't have anything even close to that. He has good movement on his breaking pitches, but his command of that pitch is not anywhere near being on the same level as Sanchez.

No it's not. Look at the scouting reports of both pitchers and you'll find out who has the better breaking pitch. Just opern your eyes and you can see flat out who has the better curveball. So troll better yourself asswipe.

Who compared him to Kershaw? You? All I remember is reading some post where somebody said his curveball was as nasty as Kershaw's. Quite the FAR CRY from actually comparing the makup of two pitchers....you know, with what they bring to the table as far as experience, fastball command, composure, secondary pitches, attitude, baseball background. I don't remember reading about anything to do with any of that. Just simply how remarkable similar their movement is on a single pitch that both guys happen to throw.

Yeah, but anybody can see plain as day that out of our young studs, Sanchez has the best stuff. Stroman has a better than average fastball but it's pretty straight. Stro has a good curveball but not quite on the same level as Sanchez. This guys curveball ranks up there with the best in either league. I'm not saying it IS the best, but it's not far off. The kid just needs to harness that fastball. When you have a 96-99mph heater that ducks, dives and darts, it's not easy to find that release point on a consistent basis. I think that why he walks a lot of guys right now. When his fastball starts at the knees, it moves downward more than most guys changeups FFS. It's going to be a learning process for this guy. I'd really love for the Jays to make a smart move for a change and have a guy like Halladay come in and work with these young guys. After bouncing around a bit, Roy turned into a f***ing beast and his composure on that hill was always top notch. From what I'm seeing, this guy has two above average pitches with fantastic movement. His ceiling is pretty much unlimited. What makes me laugh though is how you hear the kings of jaysland getting so sick and tired of the "trolls" who badmouth the team and the effort or lack thereof that they put out on the field. Yet I'm hearing some of these same guys jumping down this kids throat like he's some useless douch bag who walks too many hitters. IMO, you don't give up on guys like this so easy. They cast aside Alvarez and he's shown signs of brilliance on a otherwise weak team. And if you look at their pitches, they're fairly similar in their fastball movement, with Sanchez having the better and more polished secondary pitch. Alvarez has thrown a no hitter already and he's showing signs of being a front of the rotation pitcher. Yet people were hollering for the jays to get rid of him after a SINGLE season as just another prospect who wouldn't pan out. He's panning out alright, just in another uniform. Give Sanchez a year or two and I think we have a front of the rotation pitcher or possibly a closer with a nasty hook and a 100 mph fastball when he knows he just has to let it loose for a single inning.

Yeah, maybe that's because he lacks maturity and expereience? Do ya think Maybe? I'm pretty sure he'd prefer not to walk anyone. Hopefully he learns fastball command sooner than later. His stuff is miles better than Stromans and even better than Alvarez, who we should have never f***ing traded. He's got that same kinda sinking darting fastball, the same as that Jeff Samardija guy the A's just picked up. I'd like to see a rotation of Sanchez, Stroman, Alvarez, Hutch and either Mcguire of Nolin, whoever gets their foot in the door next.