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And suck my cock meat, cos besides Kershaw, ALVAREZ's numbers DID match up against anyone else numbers you dumb as cock nim witted douche bag. I gave you those numbers, just too bad you're too f***ing stupid to read them and own up like a man when you've been proven wrong. Breast feeding off mommy til you're 25 makes you kinda insecure eh ****wad?

All you fanboys including spanky meat wanna tell me how much better Tolleson is than Goins? Because to my count, that is the fifth time he has made a critical error either in the ninth or extra innings that played a direct part in his team losing the game. AND HE'S A PLATOON player. He has barely ANY offensive value over Goins, yet Goins is easily a PLUS 5 or 6 WAR over Tolleson defensively. Casey is finally showing how hittable he is. He's not a closer period. He is showing now that after a few times through, the league has caught on to his strategy of living off the outside corner. This team needs to get the f*** rid of Gibby. He is one of the most laughable and embarassing managers I've ever seen. He pinch runs for his biggest power threat in an extra innings game with a kid we can't afford to lose? Casy needs to f*** off and die and so does Rasmus, who might I add, had all these same fanboys "fapping" all over the place once upon a time. If they're not depending on 2B as an offensive position, Goins needs to be at that position moving forward unless they can find someone who can hit at that position. He is twenty times better than both Kawa and Tolleson at that position defensively and saves way more runs for this team than either player could produce in ten f***ing years. Bunch of f***ing meat fanboys everywhere in this organization. Still wanna tell me how SANCHEZ can't pitch at this level and walks way too many guys? Cos it sure as f*** looks to me that he's almost unhittable at this point. For sure that will change, but he's proven to be a f*** of a lot better than all the scouts that hang out here thought he would be. Bunch MEAT beating donkeys, focker out!

Yeah "Lind has been great!!!" Bahhaaaahahaha, f***ing fanboy idiot. Lind has done sweet f*** all for this team for the past 5 years. Most of his numbers, what weak ass f***ing numbers he has, have come in situations that don't f***ing matter. When it's clutch time, he's about as bad as the dent on your f***ing chin. Balls up bad.....troglodyte idiot meat.

Why the f*** do we have guys like Lind on our 40 man roster? Wasn't it just last year that they finally smartened up and sent him down, even taking him off the 40 man roster? So why the f*** is this maggot even getting 1 single AB in ANY of this teams games? He's completely f***ing useless and he's proven that over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. So we have Lind and his hill f***ing billy cousin Lind on this team? No baseball awareness whatsoever.....Bases loaded with a struggling pitcher who has thrown almost SEVENTY pitches in 2 innings.....and he bails him out by taking a weak f***ing swing at the very first pitch he sees? Then hits into the ONLY DP other than a line out you can hit into that doesn't score a run? Useless f***ing MORONS like that **** that this team employs that are a prime f***ing example of why this team continually fails to field anything resembling a winner. Along with all the winner fanboys on here, I guess it's a perfect fit!

And 150 IP isn't a lot of innings? He's shown that over 200IP, if you look at his last 6 or 7 starts from last year, that he has that skill and that he has developed that composure. Just watch as he continues to do so. Like 12 of 13 starts of 2ER or less isn't a large enough sample size? I have a passion for Alvarez because I knew what this team had and what it let go. At the time, I would NOT have trade Alvarez straight up for Reyes, even with him being a position player and an important one at that. Never mind his role as a leadoff hitter. I played this game for 15 years and I've followed it closely for 30. I know that pitching and defense win games and win pennants and championships. Reyes has always been known as an injury prone player who takes unnecessary risks, putting himself in harms way for no reason. Mets fans screamed at the top of their lungs in frustration at him for that very reason. And it has nothing to do with arrogance neither. I get called out and laughed at in numerous posts and when I defend my point, I'm the one being arrogant? REALLY? That's pretty f***ing ironic if you ask me and makes me chuckle a little. I get told I'm being insulting and backtracking, then when I say wait a second and back up my point, I'm being arrogant? An oxymoron if I've ever seen one. Which seems pretty common around here from some of the fanboys who seem to think they're gods gift to baseball. When to me it's obviuos from how they talk that they've never played the game. I have passion for this team and it bothers me when they trade away young talent for the injury prone s*** they got in return. Alvarez is a beast, get the f*** over it. All the same people laughing are the same ones "fapping" over Colby f***ing Rasmus, thast's what f***ing "irritating." Yet they want to continue to trash on other people for stating the obvious. Hopefully we get to enjoy Sanchez for awhile before they trade him for some other useless douchebag who helps this team drown in mediocrity. People around here are so used to it all they can do is bag on other people, then call them arrogant when they make their point. Utterly f***ing hilarious. I'm out of this thread, the numbers speak for themselves. Now back to bagging on Sanchez boys and girls. All the same people who thought Rasmus and Reyes were huge f***ing steals!!! Back to bagging on Sanchez. When he proves you wrong, find someone else to bag on, it suits you people oh so very well.

We will see how fast Stroman learns won't we? Because with just one full year under his belt, Alvarez has 5 complete game shutouts, a no hitter and an ERA of 2.2 over his past 200 innings of work. You want to tell me that's not dominant? I like Stroman and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and see how fast his learning curve is. But their projections over a full season are nowhere near even resembling close. And I'll argue til the sun comes up that Aaron has the best stuff of all three. Aaron and Alvarez's fastballs are both similar, heavy sink, with Aaron slightly better velocity. But Alvarez has now developed two secondary pitches that he throws consistenly for strikes. If he didn't, he wouldn't be leading the league in pitches per inning and pitches per plate appearance. Those numbers tell me that hitters can no longer sit and wait for his fastball. He IS the most efficient pitcher pitch count wise in a NL that boasts pitchers like Kershaw, Wainwright, Hamels, Cueto, Ross and Grienke. When you look at his numbers across the booared, the only pitcher with consistenly better numbers is Kershaw. So people comparing Stromans numbers to Hendersons is a complete joke. You might as well be comparing Stroman to all those same pitchers I mentioned above. Fact is, he's not even in the same f***ing hemisphere. I like Stroman too, I really do, but he's nowhere near as far in his development as Henderson is. I hate to be a prick and I'm not hating on the guy, but people need to take their fan goggles off and look at the f***ing numbers staring them in the face. I was in f***ing shock when they traded Henderson and I told a whole shitload of friends and people at work who follow the jays that Alvarez is a f***ing beast and trading him was a colossal mistake. He's still a kid with basically two years of service and has a no hitter and 5 complete game shuouts over his past 200IP. I'm sorry, but I don't see Marcus putting up those kinda numbers anytime soon. Yes, the Al east and the AL in general has a lot to do with that, but put him in a NL park like where Miami play and IMO he still won't put up those kind of numbers for some wime to come. Anyways, back to Sanchez because arguing about Alvartez not being an ace and not having the same kinda stuff as Stroman is utterly f***ing asinine. Anybody who has been around the game of baseball on the field will tell you flat out that Alvarez is miles and miles better right now and his numbers say EXACTLY that. The f***ing fanboys here who lol at numbers there is no arguing with are either just flat out stupid or in denial. Take your pick. I'm outta here. We'll see where Alvarez is in a few years and where Stroman and Sanchez are and we'll have this discussion then. Alvarez is arguably a top 3 NL pitcher, if not top five for sure. Trying to tell me Stroman is anywhere even close to that isn't worth wasting my time on. Good luck Sanchez. He's going to be a beast and the ace of this staff for years to come.

WHAT?????? BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! That's f***ing hilarious! I could see you trying to make the argument about who's stuff is better but saying it isn't even close? GTFO....that flat out stupid and downright laughable. Alvarez has so much more depth and movement to his fastball over Stroman's, it's not even funny. Alvarez CLEARLY has a superior fastball and I'm not even going to debate that with you. Stroman's breaking pitches are better and have more break, but Alvarez has developed his slider quite a bit. Try watching him pitch now before passing asinine judgments like that You can't survive in either league with just one pitch and anybody who has ever played baseball or followed it closely knows that. Henderson's slider isn't as good as Stromans, but his straight change is miles better and has improved drastically over last year. You think he's thrown 3 complete game shutouts, second in the league in Dp ground balls, lowest pitch per plate Appearance and best in pitches per inning, with just one good pitch? Alvarez overall has better stufgf than Stro hands down. Your fanboyism is blinding you pretty good.

Stroman... http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/league/al/count/161/qualified/false/order/false

Same at 2.1?? Look at their numbers for christ sakes, Alvarez CLEARLY has better numbers in just about any category there is. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/league/nl/order/false

What's so funny buddy?

Sorry to derail the thread, but I gave all the numbers anyone needs to see just how well Alvarez is doing. His ERA is one of the reasons, yes, but not the only one. From a baseball perspective, when balls are put in play against him, batters are hitting something like .290. Not very good at all, but that speaks volumes to why is ERA is all that much more important. He has learned at a very young age to pitch to contact and to trust his stuff. Batters are hitting .290 when they make contact off of him, yet he's still only averaging two and a half runs per 9IP and that's spectacular. He pitches to his strength and it shows in the number of double plays he has put up and how low his pitches per inning and pitches per batter are. His WHIP is a tad high at 1.22 but that again back up my point. He's given up more hits than innings pitched, but he's still averaging less than 14 pitches per inning, which tells me he's a consistent strike thrower. His stats from top to bottom back up my point that he is one the top five pitchers in the National league right now and that makes him an ACE right now. Can that change next year, f*** yeah. But even dating back to his last few starts last year, he threw a no-hitter and showed flashes of sheer brilliance. I don't think Stroman has that high of a ceiling. Only time will tell, but I think Sanchez has the highest ceiling of any pitcher we have in this organization. It is rare to find any pitcher who has that much dramatic sink to a 96mph plus fastball. Pair him with a good catcher, one who can coax him in and out, one who can teach him the importance of command and changing the eye level of a hitter, and he's going to be a f***ing stud. I'd bet good money that within 2-3 years of him becoming a starter, he wins 15 plus games on a yearly basis. Teach this kid a change on either his breaking ball or his fastball with any consistency and the sky is the limit for him. I think Aaron has better stuff than Alvarez even. I said it when they traded him, it was one of the biggest mistakes this organization has made in a long time. Alvarez is a f***ing stud and he will be for years to come, barring injury.

This team is just a f***ing joke right now. They need to make changes and it starts with the manager and getting someone in here who will make his team play baseball the way it was meant to be played. Poor defense, bad decesions, no hustle, poor execution...just f***ing ridiculous all the way around. I'd like to know why the f*** Santos and his stupid f***ing face is allowed back on this team? Bring in Jannsen who can't get anyone out lately, then when you get out of that, you bring in Sergio f***ing Santos? It's a f***ing miracle this team is over .500 right now. This is flat out the worst run and managed team in all of baseball. Go ahead Spanky, tell me how wrong I am and what a troglodyte I am and blah blah blah blah blah.....f***ing fanboys make me wanna puke

They have to put Aaron in the rotation next year. I think they're aiming to have Norris there too. Let the 4 youngsters have their growing pains now, so we can have them at their best a few years from now.

Don't even bother, most of these people when they get all fanboy over one guy, can't accept that they are wrong, even when the numbers are shoved right in their faces. I put enough of them out there to prove them all wrong, so they can go check the expanded stats for themselves. Fact is Alvarez has over TRIPLE the WAR, throws way less pitches to get the job done, throws more shutouts, more DP GB's and has an ERA a full run and a half lower, ranking him fifth in the NL at 2.57 which is stellar. Especially if you look at his expanded stats next to Wainwright's, they're pretty f***ing impressive. And Wainwright is a genuine f***ing stud that any team would give their left nut to have. I'm noit saying Alvarez is half the pitcher Wainright is. But their stats say that over THIS season alone, they're pretty damn close.

Real classy assface. Show some respect for the dead you f***ing moron, especially from a guy suffering from obvious mental illness. Dumb f***ing ****.

Alvarez-3.8 WAR Stroman-1.2 WAR No argument there, not even close. The numbers I put out there, suggest Alvarez is far superior right now. He throws over 3 full pitches lees per inning, which over a 7 inning performance is an average of 21 pitches. Alvarez will be in the game longer almost every time. They've allowed the same amount of earned runs, with alvarez having pitched 60 innings more. Alvarez leads the NL in Shutouts and is second in inducing DP ground balls, with about 20 less IP than the rest of the top 10. Alvarez also has a slightly higher K to BB rate, while not being a strikeout pitcher like Stro is. I think that says a lot when you've got a guy who is tops in the league in DP ground balls and he STILL has the higherK/BB rate. Sorry, but it's no contest here. I want the guy who throws way less pitches to get where he needs to be. Not to mention that I'd much rather the guy who leads the league in complete game shut outs, who also has a no hitter under his belt. So it goes a lot deeper than just ERA. Alvarez is better in many of the most important categories, not only over Stro, but over the top ten aside from Kershaw in the enire NL.

In less IP, Alvarez has induced more ground balls than anyone in the top 5 by a long shot. He is FIRST in the top ten in pitches per plate appearance and in pitches per inning pitched, is second only to Kershaw with 13.9 to 13.6 for Clayton. But don't get carried away and start telling me I'm saying Alvarez is the better pitcher based on that one stat now! I made a single comparison so don't get your panties in a bunch! His expanded pitching stats all the way down the line are extremely impressive and if you look at them, rivals anyone in the top 5 except Kershaw, who is miles above the rest.

When did I compare Alvarez to Kershaw? I said his numbers rival just about anyone's, except Kershaw. So I don't know wtf you're talking about. I said if it weren't for Kershaw, he's get some serious consideration and that he'd still get some regardless. Did I say anywhere it was going to be close or even a remotely tough decision? No, I did not. And comparing Stromans numbers to Alvarez's this year is utterly f***ing stupid and ridiculous. They're not even comparable and not even close. Alvarez has given up the same amount of ER in SIXTY more innings pitched. That's almost SEVEN complete games. SEVEN. War of 1.2 compared to 3.8. Era of 2.57, ranking fith best in the NL over nearly a COMPLETE season to an ERA over 4. Projected walks are less. Alvarez has 3 complete game shutouts, Stroman? Alvarez has already a no hitter to his credit. Jesus, the numbers go on and on. Projected, Stroman will have walked more men. Alvarez has thrown the second most double play balls in the NL. LOL, yeah, Stroman is easily comparable to Alvarez. Make laugh out loud. Thanks for that one.

Also, not sure where you are getting your stats, but Stroman is a 1.2 WAR and Alvarez a 3.8. I'm still waiting to see what it is about my argument or what it is about the stats that is so "ridiculous.

It's easy. Has Stroman been anywhere near as dominant consistently? Like 12 of 13 starts with 2 ER or lees? with an ERA of 2.57 the fifth best in the league, over 24 starts? Almost all of his numbers rival anyone else except Kershaw's. Where's Stroman's 3 shutouts? Stroman has an ERA over 4.....and don't give me any bs about it being inflated over a few bad starts, cos Henderson has had four starts of giving up 5 plus runs as well. Henderson has given up 43 ER over 150 IP and Stroman 42 over 90 IP. Come on already.

Yeah ok buddy!!!! You're my hero!! Before his last start, 12 of his last 13 starts, he allowed 2ER or less. Over 150 innings pitched, he has an ERA of 2.5, ranking him FIFTH in the national league. He has more shutouts than anyone in the top 10. He's induced the second most double plays. Now he does rank below most in his quality start percentage, but I think that will get better with experience. The fact that his numbers are still near the top, speak volumes considering his ERA inflates drastically with the few bad starts he has had, more than anyone else. He's made 2 starts less that Wainwright, who is one of the premiere pitchers in baseball. His ERA is 2.57 vs. 2.52 for Adam. His k to BB rate is inferior to only Clayton and Grienke. I don't see anything in his numbers that wouldn't rank him as one of the best performing pitchers in the NL this year.

Why the f*** is Valencia here? What does he give you offensively over Goins? Nothing. Except he can hit lefties, but has that made an impact? NO. What does Goins give you over Valencia? LOL. Unbelieveable that this organization doesn't comprehend the ABC's of baseball. These guys aren't important in our offensive scheme. So it bascically boild down to defense and Goins is a thousand times the defender Valencia is.

LOL, you people make me laugh out loud. Is mommy still changing your underwear for you?

He is the ACE of that staff right now and with better win totals to reflect his numbers, could easily be in line for Cy Young consideration. He probably will still get some consideration. Besides Kershaw, his numbers are arguably the best in the NL and rival those of anybody else in baseball really.

Having a manager who is just stuck in that theory that you "stick with your veterans" just bothers me. You play this f***ing game to WIN, it really is as simple as that. This involves going with the hot hand and skipping on guys who aren't. When those guys complain, tell them to start performing and let their numbers do the talking or shut the f*** up. A manager with some f***ing stones, instead of a guy who sits there interview after interview and says, "well, the guys just din't have it today." What a f***ing cop out. Make decisions that BEST put your team in a position to WIN. This doesn't involve leaving a soft throwing STRUGGLING left to face three right hand batters in the late innings when you have a kid who has been lights out in the bullpen FFS. It doesn't involve taking that kid, who has, BIG SURPRISE, been lights out when you finally did bring him in, out for another struggling pitcher in the ninth inning. This f***ing idiot manages this team into the ground and is easily responsible for 8-10 losses singlehandedly with his stupidity over the course of a season.