AA on Tim&Sid

[GeorgiaPeach]

Cano was worth almost $30M last year according to Fangrgaphs and his 5 wins above replacement value of the likes of Goins/Kawasaki/Tolleson/ would have I think propelled this team to a wild card spot. AA wasted that money on Romero, Morrow, and a host of other non contributors

 

I can't think of many, if any people who were against giving Romero the contract he got. In hindsight it was horrible, but at the time a deal.

[burlingtonbandit]

Except JP Ricciardi, or sorry "Retarded,s" was a tangibly superior executive. He put better teams on the field for less money. Bottom line.

 

Well a dollar in 2006 isn't the same as a dollar in 2014 so i think you would have to look at it relative to the spending of other teams. You could also say one of the reasons AA hasn't been successful is because there were no MLB prospects in the system when he got here because of Riccardi's drafting and developing and that is going to have a huge effect on $ per win since young guys obviously make league min.

 

Wins and losses might not be as telling of a stat in relation to how good a GM has been as you think it might be. Every situation is different.

[kgm1]

How about talent in the organization when he started vs talent now.

 

Look , He is far from the best GM out there and yes he has made some terrible deals but the talent level is much higher than 5 years ago.

 

Are we better off with a new GM? I don't know. I called for Retarded,s head for 8 years and AA brought such a breath of fresh air to the Job that I give him the chance to finish his 3 year plan.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I thought the general manager of a baseball team was virtually paid on his ability to assess and predict future performance of players. Isn't that what the general manager does?

 

Name one GM that can foresee issues down the road? And has never signed a bad contract or taken on a player that turns out to be a mistake in hindsight.

[burlingtonbandit]

Who gives a s***? Jesus.

 

E: that wasn't a response to your post, but to the notion that we should care about w/l in challenges. I can't think of a measuring stick I care less about.

 

Thats pretty much what I was going to say. Challenges usually come from upstairs anyway and the Manager is just the middle man.

[Sammy225]

Anyone who thinks managers contributes more than 1-2 games difference IMO is off their rocker. Managers are their to write out lineups and manage the bullpen. I value managers as little as anyone. So anyone who thinks that a different manager would have provided a significant difference bring me some proof.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I am and he is 396-414 in 5 years, never finishing above 3rd in his division. In fact, his best year was his first year when he inherited a team built by JPR. He also has the worst record in his division during that time span

 

Is there any other metrics we should be using?

 

Should've just kept building the farm and ignored the media and fans who are no-minds. Biggest mistake.

[Boxcar]

Well a dollar in 2006 isn't the same as a dollar in 2014 so i think you would have to look at it relative to the spending of other teams. You could also say one of the reasons AA hasn't been successful is because there were no MLB prospects in the system when he got here because of Riccardi's drafting and developing and that is going to have a huge effect on $ per win since young guys obviously make league min.

 

Wins and losses might not be as telling of a stat in relation to how good a GM has been as you think it might be. Every situation is different.

 

Hutchison, Alvarez, Handsome Jake, Snider, Nolin were all JPR guys. Obviously he wasn't great with the farm but he hardly left a bare cupboard.

 

I'm not even advocating bringing JPR back but for some reason it seems people are far more forgiving of AA despite the fact that he hasn't gotten any results, and is full of s*** 95% of the time.

[Smokey]

But how do you want to judge General Managers

 

Just pick any metrics. I mean isn't it about wins at the end of the day, and being 14 games under .500 for 5 years, plus never finishing higher than 3rd, isn't that bad??

 

I am just trying to understand the logic. So I cant judge AA on past performance, and I cant judge him on future assessments. Just give me some Key Performance Indicators. Should I judge him on the number of late night Papa John's orders?

 

 

Logic? hahaha

 

It's called being a delusional/senile homer and logic has very little to do with it.

[burlingtonbandit]

Hutchison, Alvarez, Handsome Jake, Snider, Nolin were all JPR guys. Obviously he wasn't great with the farm but he hardly left a bare cupboard.

 

I'm not even advocating bringing JPR back but for some reason it seems people are far more forgiving of AA despite the fact that he hasn't gotten any results, and is full of s*** 95% of the time.

 

Weren't those guys drafted when AA was AGM too, minus Snider? I think AA could have done a better job in some areas but he is not as bad as people make him to be. As for him not saying s*** when asked questions, thats his job. Id rather he be good with the media and not say stupid s*** like JPR which impacts guys value. Sure it might be better as a fan to have a better idea of what the team is doing but nothing good comes of him talking more openly about plans and players.

 

As a Sens fan, Bryan Murray is too honest with the media and I think it hurts players value around the league. Look at what the return Jason Spezza got and tell me that other GMs knowing he was going to move him had nothing to do with the s*** return he got.

[Smokey]

Weren't those guys drafted when AA was AGM too, minus Snider?

 

Oh god...

[youngtea]

Youngtea: dipshit. Thanks for your contribution.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your hate towards me. Is this the norm on this forum? If so I guess I made the wrong decision joining.

[Boxcar]

OK, its a two way street then. If AA gets credit (somehow) for those guys, he also gets blame for assisting JPR in building a s***** farm.

[Boxcar]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your hate towards me. Is this the norm on this forum? If so I guess I made the wrong decision joining.

 

Sorry, I was just adding to my list. I don't care if you post or not, but in the future, please don't post as if you know what you're talking about.

[youngtea]

Anyone who thinks managers contributes more than 1-2 games difference IMO is off their rocker. Managers are their to write out lineups and manage the bullpen. I value managers as little as anyone. So anyone who thinks that a different manager would have provided a significant difference bring me some proof.

 

My only viewpoint is this. He has never demonstrated to have been a good coach and no one except our team really ever wanted him to coach for them. We brought him back because AA thought he might be good coach, but it never panned out. So far he has coached numerous seasons with the Jays with different lineups and has shown not have lead our team to the playoffs. Nothing you have said prove to me that he has any success as a coach. His inability to manage his players through his MLB coaching career should also be a cause for concern.

[youngtea]

Sorry, I was just adding to my list. I don't care if you post or not, but in the future, please don't post as if you know what you're talking about.

 

So anyone who opposes your viewpoint doesn't know what you're talking about? I see how this game works.

 

When will you decide that Gibbons should be let go? One more season? two? three?

[Boxcar]

So anyone who opposes your viewpoint doesn't know what you're talking about? I see how this game works.

 

When will you decide that Gibbons should be let go? One more season? two? three?

 

The answer is: I don't care because his impact is minimal and this team won't make the playoffs no matter who is in charge. Your haste to name Gibbons as a scapegoat shows a lack of critical thinking ability and common sense. I usually encompass those traits with the term "dipshit" and I am sorry if you find it offensive.

[Deadpool]

Gibbons is also by far the worst at manager challenges (source: baseball reference). BY FAR. Gibbons is amateur hour. Always has been, always will be.

 

Yeah, I'm not going to put too much stock in that given the number of times I've seen New York get a review blatantly wrong... Maybe in a few years when it is ironed out and not pretty much laughable, but until then ragging on a manager for this seems silly.

[Sammy225]

My only viewpoint is this. He has never demonstrated to have been a good coach and no one except our team really ever wanted him to coach for them. We brought him back because AA thought he might be good coach, but it never panned out. So far he has coached numerous seasons with the Jays with different lineups and has shown not have lead our team to the playoffs. Nothing you have said prove to me that he has any success as a coach. His inability to manage his players through his MLB coaching career should also be a cause for concern.

 

I am saying if a monkey can write a lineup card and manage a bullpen it would have the same impact as any manager that would have managed in 2014. You would see either 2 more wins or 2 more losses. Managers is the most overrated position ever. It is a scape goat for GM's that put together a team that does not win. Players decide the game..... Not the manager. A manager writes out the lineup like 95% of the other managers would and then the players take it from their.

 

If managers made that big of a difference maybe Boston would have been a little better with the reigning manager of the year at the helm. (What a completely useless award).

[youngtea]

The answer is: I don't care because his impact is minimal and this team won't make the playoffs no matter who is in charge. Your haste to name Gibbons as a scapegoat shows a lack of critical thinking ability and common sense. I usually encompass those traits with the term "dipshit" and I am sorry if you find it offensive.

 

 

If that's the case I can call you the same, but I like to think I have a little more class when I'm arguing with someone.

 

My point is Gibbons has never shown through his coaching career that he is a good coach. You can say I'm this or that, but argue my point. Tell me why Gibbons deserves to have his job. He has been given the lead coaching position on the jays for 7 seasons now and has shown nothing to prove otherwise. Even his confrontations with players should be a warning about his ability to manage players.

[burlingtonbandit]

My only viewpoint is this. He has never demonstrated to have been a good coach and no one except our team really ever wanted him to coach for them. We brought him back because AA thought he might be good coach, but it never panned out. So far he has coached numerous seasons with the Jays with different lineups and has shown not have lead our team to the playoffs. Nothing you have said prove to me that he has any success as a coach. His inability to manage his players through his MLB coaching career should also be a cause for concern.

 

First of all I think you have to stop using the term "coach". Managers aren't there to coach, they are there to make in game decisions. There are hitting, pitching and fielding coaches who are there for that and even then players older than 25 are not going to improve because of coaching. People need to stop thinking a manager is going to coach his team to be better than their talent. Take any manager in the MLB and have them on this Jays team this past season and they will win between 81-85 wins.

[burlingtonbandit]

If that's the case I can call you the same, but I like to think I have a little more class when I'm arguing with someone.

 

My point is Gibbons has never shown through his coaching career that he is a good coach. You can say I'm this or that, but argue my point. Tell me why Gibbons deserves to have his job. He has been given the lead coaching position on the jays for 7 seasons now and has shown nothing to prove otherwise. Even his confrontations with players should be a warning about his ability to manage players.

 

He is not a coach though, he is a manager. What did you think of Joe Torre before he went to the Yankees? Managers jobs are probably less valuable than the team's strength and conditioning coach.

[43211234]

Since I don't see it posted, here's the link. It's really long and rambling.

 

http://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_demand-3/Alex-Anthopoulos-with-Tim-Micallef-and-Sid-Seixeiro-ts-20140929-Interview.mp3

 

Has there ever been an interview where AA doesn't mention OPS? I cringe for the state of the franchise every time he does.

 

I used to hope he used it just in interviews as a bridge between traditional and advanced statistics, but now I believe that it's honestly how he evaluates offensive production.

[Deadpool]

Even his confrontations with players should be a warning about his ability to manage players.

 

Ted Lilly, Shea Hillenbrand and... ? In 7 seasons where he's coached dozens of players? Sometimes baseball players are dicks (and Shea Hillenbrand definitely qualified on that one...) and sometimes letting a player get away with being a dick isn't the right move.

 

Jesus f***, if he hadn't done that s*** people would be complaining that the team was walking all over him.

[burlingtonbandit]

Has there ever been an interview where AA doesn't mention OPS? I cringe for the state of the franchise every time he does.

 

I used to hope he used it just in interviews as a bridge between traditional and advanced statistics, but now I believe that it's honestly how he evaluates offensive production.

 

Better OPS than wins and batting average. Since the Jays play in a hitter's park there is no harm in making player's value seem higher by referencing OPS. If the team played in a pitcher's park I'm sure he would talk about park factors..

[o2cui2i]

The problem with this team is not the players, but coaching. A career record of 462-472 demonstrates that he isn't a good coach. There have numerous players that have stepped out of the lucker room to show the lack of respect towards him. The team was rolling early this season and fell apart under his control.

 

Fire Gibbons and get a competent coach and you might actually make the playoffs next season.

 

you cant blame Gibbons for not slotting players, that he didn't have on his roster, into the lineup. Gibbons didn't lose many games this year. A manager's influence is not that big. it's certainly not a 10 win detriment to the team.

[bill]

actions speak louder than works. And the results from AA and Gibbons have been negative.

[bill]

How about talent in the organization when he started vs talent now.

 

Look , He is far from the best GM out there and yes he has made some terrible deals but the talent level is much higher than 5 years ago.

 

Are we better off with a new GM? I don't know. I called for Retarded,s head for 8 years and AA brought such a breath of fresh air to the Job that I give him the chance to finish his 3 year plan.

 

Beyond the young pitchers he brought up this year, the minor league talent is depleted. As a result they had to use guys like Francisco when they had injuries this year.

[bill]

Gibbons is also by far the worst at manager challenges (source: baseball reference). BY FAR. Gibbons is amateur hour. Always has been, always will be.

 

I agree he's a minor league manager at best

[burlingtonbandit]

Beyond the young pitchers he brought up this year, the minor league talent is depleted. As a result they had to use guys like Francisco when they had injuries this year.

 

Even with the promotions of the pitchers this is a top 8 farm maybe even better..Can't say the minor league talent is depleted.