Anyone else upset that we gave Jesse Chavez away for cash?

[KingKat]

 

17 starts in 2012 down in the minors as a 28-year-old. I don't ignore that, but you have to factor what he was before that. Anyone can have a stretch of 15 or so starts and look great. He was 28 and was a full time reliever previously. No team was going to give him a full time rotation gig in 2013. Even Oakland didn't. He was just used as a mop-up/long man in the A's BP.

 

So should the organization give every 28-year-old fringe replacement level player that comes around a longer look?

 

No of course not. If you have a deep rotation you probably never give a guy like Chavez a shot and you just move on. s*** like that happens and I'm fine with it but no matter how much you pretend it did that's clearly not what's happened here. When you're struggling to find innings and you finally give the guy an opportunity becasuse A. You're desperate and B. He's performed well, you don't give up on him after 21 innings just because of something as meaningless as a high homerun rate over a small sample. That's borderlinge schyzophrenic. You don't seem to comprehend why that s*** still sticks in my craw two years later. It was poor roster management something this team excels in.

 

 

What makes Chavez different from Esmil Rogers for example? Look at Rogers' rate stats from his time in the BP with Cleveland. Rogers gets so much hate around here, but couldn't we say Rogers turned the corner in 2012? Rogers was given an opportunity in the rotation due to injuries and never panned out. Sometimes you get lucky with late 20-year-old vets, sometimes you don't.

 

The fact that the team was willing to give up two potentially useful role players for Rogers but wasn't willing to merely give a little playing time to Chavez when the team didn't have any pitching doesn't really help your point.

 

If Chavez wasn't lights out for his first 3 starts, this thread wouldn't have existed.

 

You're absolutely right but what does that change about the circumstances of 2012? Oh right, it doesn't change anything. All Chavez is doing is bringing back the painful memory. It was a derpy move. Was there a chance it never came back to haunt the Jays? Absolutely but it was a still a mistake and like I said before there is some poetic justice to seeing Chavez do well in these 3 starts.

 

17 starts in the minors doesn't justify an entire career for a 28-year-old veteran. Sorry, but you can't hold onto every 28-30-year-old ballplayer or pitcher who shows success in the minors and give them a long opportunity like 150 games, or 20-25 starts at the MLB level. Sometimes an opportunity arises where those players are put in those situations and they either succeed or disappoint, though no organization should not be guaranteeing everyday AB's or a rotation spot to fringe veterans who displayed some success in the minors.

 

I haven't said any of those things. You're just making broad extrapolations rather than addressing the specific circumstances around Chavez.

 

Sometimes an opportunity arises where those players are put in those situations and they either succeed or disappoint, though no organization should not be guaranteeing everyday AB's or a rotation spot to fringe veterans who displayed some success in the minors.

 

As I've already stated, I'm not saying anything should have been guaranteed. What happened is that an opportunity did arise for Chavez and it was bungled by the organization. For the life of me, I can't see why you can't wrap your head around that.

[jaysblue]

No of course not. If you have a deep rotation you probably never give a guy like Chavez a shot and you just move on. s*** like that happens and I'm fine with it but no matter how much you pretend it did that's clearly not what's happened here. When you're struggling to find innings and you finally give the guy an opportunity becasuse A. You're desperate and B. He's performed well, you don't give up on him after 21 innings just because of something as meaningless as a high homerun rate over a small sample. That's borderlinge schyzophrenic. You don't seem to comprehend why that s*** still sticks in my craw two years later. It was poor roster management something this team excels in.

 

So are you saying that the Jays shouldn't have given up on guys like Chien Ming Wang last season after only 27 innings? He was solid down in Triple A. Chavez was a fringe arm, that mostly spent his career in the bullpen. Sure it would have been nice to hang onto him, but even Oakland never used him as a starter in 2013 when he was there. It's just irrational to say back in 2012 that you thought Chavez was going to be a solid Major League starter, when there was very little evidence suggesting that.

 

The fact that the team was willing to give up two potentially useful role players for Rogers but wasn't willing to merely give a little playing time to Chavez when the team didn't have any pitching doesn't really help your point.

 

Just using Rogers as an example. His rate stats were excellent with Cleveland in 2012 and he s*** the bed here. Just goes to show you that some guys could pan out and some guys don't. So far in 3 starts, Chavez has. Lets see if he makes it to 20-25 starts this season.

 

You're absolutely right but what does that change about the circumstances of 2012? Oh right, it doesn't change anything. All Chavez is doing is bringing back the painful memory. It was a derpy move. Was there a chance it never came back to haunt the Jays? Absolutely but it was a still a mistake and like I said before there is some poetic justice to seeing Chavez do well in these 3 starts.

 

Was it a painful memory last season when Chavez was pitching as a mop-up guy out of the A's bullpen?

 

Sure mistakes are made, but there are so many examples of teams catching lightning in a bottle with a vet. Look at Josh Towers for an example. Baltimore then made a mistake for letting him go, since he was a decent arm for the Jays for those three seasons. Letting go of Towers went on to haunt them since he posted a 4.2 WAR in 2005. The Pirates are probably still banging their heads on letting Jose Bautista go, and even the Rangers probably for trading Chris Davis, but stuff like that happens. You can't go and say two-three years after and say "oh I knew Jose Bautista was going to hit 50 HR's in a season back in 2007/2008 or that Chris Davis was going be in the running for MVP when he was struggling with Texas" after the fact.

 

I haven't said any of those things. You're just making broad extrapolations rather than addressing the specific circumstances around Chavez.

 

I'm not making broad extrapolations. Chavez didn't have any success here in Toronto at the big league level. He was a fringe pitcher so I'm asking where does it warrant him getting an extended look in the rotation? Then you can make that argument about almost anyone. Sometimes players get an opportunity and run with it; sometimes they don't. Especially for those fringe minor league/replacement level vets, they can't afford to struggle early once they get an opportunity since then that stamps their ticket out of town.

 

As I've already stated, I'm not saying anything should have been guaranteed. What happened is that an opportunity did arise for Chavez and it was bungled by the organization. For the life of me, I can't see why you can't wrap your head around that.

 

How was it bungled? He never panned out here in Toronto and who would have said he would? Sure it looks like a mistake if Chavez goes on to post a 3-4 WAR season in Oakland this season. Though it's easy to say that now in 2014 compared to in 2012.

 

I'm all on the Jesse Chavez bandwagon, especially after I claimed him in my 30-team dynasty league. Though I find it hard to believe that you saw this coming back in 2012 and are saying the Jays made a huge mistake in letting go of a fringe MLB player at the time. It's easy to say that two-three years after the fact. Let's wait and see him make more than 3 starts this season.

[ElNik2013]

PIT, KC and ATL gave up on this guy also. I'm sure the Braves could use him now with the injuries to their rotation. The Royals have Bruce Chen starting, I think they could use him.

 

Who knows, but I wish him well, I hope he's as good as he's pitching, but let's face it, he didn't even start a game for the A's last season. Anyway....

[jaysblue]

PIT, KC and ATL gave up on this guy also. I'm sure the Braves could use him now with the injuries to their rotation. The Royals have Bruce Chen starting, I think they could use him.

 

Who knows, but I wish him well, I hope he's as good as he's pitching, but let's face it, he didn't even start a game for the A's last season. Anyway....

 

+1

 

What was KC, PIT and especially Atlanta thinking?

 

It's irrational and insane to say that Chavez was going to be an above-average MLB starter back in 2012 when he displayed very little success previously. Heck for majority of his career, he was a reliever. Even Oakland used him as a mop-up guy in 2013.

 

I'm sure Atlanta fans especially are raging now as much as KingCat is. He should join their forum and let out his emotions and feelings there.