glory

Poor ice.

The Jays have a good chance of making it just because the teams ahead of them are beatable. Whether they can sustain the offensive injuries and pitch well enough to win is another story. I think the break will do them some good , but they need to come out guns blazing on Friday. They won't duplicate May any time soon but they need to go on a good run.

I'm not arguing that his 2012 spending was bad. It was. I'm saying he never made a single follow-up move with the exception of Navarro, which proves either he's a moron who thought Goins at 2B, two rotation spots unfilled, and Sierra on the bench was going to push them to contention, or he didn't have the capability of making further moves. Again, is there a well run high payroll team out there that spends an entire off-season doing nothing but minor league signings and waiver pick-ups? You can choose not to answer the question if you want, or choose to throw insults for no reason, but I'll save you the trouble and tell you that you'd be wrong (again) if you suggested that a will run team (ownership and GM) would operate like that. A quick summation: everything is within the GM's control. Which answer best describes your opinion: A) AA's moves this off-season were meant to improve the roster. AA's moves this off-season were not meant to improve the roster. If your answer is A, then you're delusional. A GM looking to save his ass is not going to spend all winter signing minor league free agents and waiver pick-ups. He'd be doing something, anything, to improve the MLB roster within the limitations of payroll. That's logical. So why didn't Alex do anything? You are clearly implying that the roster construction lay entirely at his feet, so explain to me how he felt signing nothing but minor leaguers and a s***** catcher was his way of improving the team…..one freakin' winter after trading about a dozen prospects for expensive experienced vets? Is Alex bipolar? He wants to hoard assets one season, spend recklessly the next, and then do nothing the year after that? Most likely that his hands were tied. I'll get to it below. That's not insane thinking when it has happened twice in five years. Yes, I am flat out suggesting that Rogers tied the hands of the GM. Ricciardi did not make any MLB transactions in the 2009 off-season. Not a single one. Everyone he signed was on a minor league deal. He signed all his arby eligible players, then signed nothing but MiLB deal. He was fired at the end of that season. Fast forward to 2014. Alex signs a catcher to a deal that he himself admitted was identical to what JPA would have made in arbitration, and then nothing but minor league signings and waiver claims. He'll probably be fired after this season, barring a playoff appearance. So please explain to me, since you are so sure that my position is wrong, why did two almost identical modes of behavior happen within five years and not once is the ownership group responsible for it? Was it a weird coincidence? Are you that naive? Yes, because the Rolen and Rios moves happened in the off-season, and Millar and Dellucci were MLB deals. Read. Please. Dodging an argument by insinuating that you're arguing with a crazy person is both a time waster and proof you are also crazy (a sane person wouldn't argue with a crazy one). On that note, we are running in circles here. When Alex is fired, payroll is reduced after the season, and the new GM hypes up a brand new rebuilding phase that ends prematurely, we can rekindle this argument about how great Rogers is. So, I'll see you in about four years.

The Marlins trade really was the death of the Bautista Era. If that trade never happens, then the Dickey trade never happens, and the whole dynamic changes, short and long term.

Oh, I'm positive ownership did not trust Alex with extra money. I keep mentioning 2009 because that was the year they lost faith in JP and the same thing happened (seriously, it's almost identical). This entire season was an excuse to fire AA. My point is, if they wanted to win, they should have added. If they wanted to get a new GM and scale back, then they should have done it. They didn't do anything, which is a waste of a season, a waste of the prime years of your best players, etc. Halladay knows how a season like this feels.

Just to make my point more clear, I think Alex is responsible for this roster and current position. He deserves to get railed for it. All I'm saying is there is enough inconsistencies in the way this team has operated the last two years to suggest that ownership has meddled, especially this off-season as it mirrors 2009 so much it is scary. Ownership should have a consistent vision. Don't increase payroll at all if there isn't going to be a consistent uptick annually. They were better off with a small budget in that case.

What money did he spend in the off-season? Navarro's salary was what they expected JPA's arbitration figure to be (per Alex himself). Other than that, what money was spent? The payroll increased because of the existing backloaded contracts. You know, the ones Rogers approved of last year. You dodged or misunderstood the question. How many well run high payroll teams do NOTHING in an off season? I'm not talking about shedding salary, or increasing salary. I'm talking about nothing but minor league deals and waiver pick ups? It's amusing because you have no evidence to support your claims either. You are assuming Alex making nothing but minor league deals and waiver pick ups was his idea of improving the team, which is insanely stupid. Why didn't Alex shed payroll if there was a payroll ceiling? Why didn't he make lateral moves to improve areas without increasing payroll? Why didn't JP Ricciardi make a single MLB transaction in 2009 (the year they fired him)? All the answers to those questions, apparently are devoid of ownership involvement. Makes complete sense. You are way off base here. I'm not absolving Alex of blame. He should be blamed. I'm saying the last two years, contrary to blinders warn by ownership backers, had Rogers fingerprints over it. You can choose to not believe it, that's up to you. You are just as clueless to the inner workings of the team as I am. We are all guessing. reality in this case, especially since the same damn thing happened in 2009, doesn't back your assertions. Rogers doesn't seem to run logically.

How many of the well run teams would jack up payroll by some $40M one off-season , then do absolutely nothing the next? How many of the well run teams would freeze payroll and not allow MLB transactions (Navarro aside) in an off season not once but TWICE in the last five years? Remember in 2009 when the off season was pretty much digging up the corpses of Millar, Clement, etc? Rogers is a terrible owner. Yes, they increased payroll. However, is it not common sense to have a 2-3 year plan to strategically bump payroll to account for existing backloaded contracts and improving the team? The last time Rogers acted like this, they were firing JP Ricciardi. Alex has saved himself for at least another month or so by the team playing better than expected, but they could have been first place right now if Alex added talent in the off season. Before you blame Alex for that, who benefits more by not spending, the owner or the GM?

Beeston talked about spending money when the time was right, yet the chose the season after a 73 win season to do it. I have to believe Rogers was behind the spending. Maybe not the players necessarily, but I think they wanted to create a buzz after the 2012 season fell flat.

Wow. The same ownership group that didn't allow a single MLB transaction other the swapping the expected arbitration raise of JPA and giving it to Dinner Navarro is now going to let two impending FA's go? Totally didn't see that coming. Next we will find out that the options for Santos, Morrow, and Happ won't be picked up People here hate AA, and while I'm not a big fan of his, I hate Rogers co. more.

If the Jays are smart, they will dangle Dickey and Reyes in trade talks this month. Reyes in particular is in Vernon Wells status. Dude is toast defensively, and offensively he is never going to reach his peak years again. Sell dammit. Reyes for Hanley, then play Hanley for two months and let him walk. Save $22M just like that without hurting 2014.

The Orioles post All-Star stretch is pretty brutal; a ten game road trip against Oakland, the Angels, and Seattle, followed by home games against the Angels and M's, before what hopefully is an important series in Toronto. The Jays have to hold their heads above water by the break. Two games back or less.

Wow. People actually believe this club will add someone by anything other than waiver claims or minor league deals? You guys have more faith than me.

I was thinking Dickey for Nick Franklin+, but then we would have no one to replace Dickey. Maybe Dickey and Thole to Seattle for Franklin and Maurer, and then Maurer to Arizona for McCarthy. Essentially, Dickey for McCarthy and Franklin. Probably a net positive and cost saving as well.

The salaries being a wash is what prompted more prospects to be added. Why would the Astros trade by far the two best players in the deal (Happ and Lyon) plus take back the deadweight salary without being compensated for it? The Jays paid with quantity, not quality. And one could argue Happ was showing something different in Houston. His walks were down, GB rate was up, and strike outs were high, but he had an unsustainably high HR rate. Maybe they felt he could reach a different ceiling than what he was projected to reach at the time. He's been solid in Toronto for a 5th starter, but never really took that leap forward. Whatever. The trade was still not bad. Hell, had the Jays kept Carpenter, it would look a lot better right now.

If anyone in the Happ deal ends up being as good as Happ, I will be surprised. I can't believe people still sweat that trade. Happ is mediocre but come on. Half the prospects in that deal were likely included so that Houston would take Cordero and Franciso's worthless contracts. Yan Gomes' OBP now at .309. His BB:K rates are not good enough to sustain high batting averages so I'm not surprised his numbers dropped. He is still everything we wished JPA was, though, with much better defense.

It is pretty clear the Jays will be using him as their "deadline acquisition" once they fail to get anyone. Putting him in AAA was a Hail Mary move by the organization hoping his stuff would click with a different pitching coach and he'd be able to contribute in the Majors this season. Hope it works, but he doesn't look ready. Hopefully the arm slot change does something positive.

The Rangers suck.

If the Jays play .500 ball over the next 11 games (5-6 or 6-5), I think they'll be 1st by the break. If they do their typical nosedive, then it's probably the Orioles.

Haven't read much of this thread, but how about Gregorius and McCarthy? Cheap young SS/2B and a rotation option. Both undervalued or underutilized.

I know, but my point was I would rather trade what's left of the farm for elite players than mid rotation starters.

Though I will add I would prefer to keep the prospects. I don't want there to be a window period. I'm just saying if they are adamant about trading prospects for short term gain, then make sure it is for elite talent.

My thoughts exactly. If AA is going to gut the farm system to win now, then trade your top guys for Price and Zobrist. Adds way more wins than Shark, and we know those guys (Price most importantly) can pitch in the AL East.

Here is where AA acquiring no depth this past winter is going to hurt.

I never said he was great, but the numbers themselves were not bad. 9.11 K/9, 3.28 BB/9, 0.7 HR/9 (these numbers not counting the 8 walk start). I'm not expecting anything from Morrow, but he's getting paid this season regardless and the other trade options are not much better than him.