ClevelandBrownsFan2

Not sure why the Blue Jays would offer more than 2-3 years to either of these guys (EE and JB) right now. The most relevant indicator of performance over a new deal with be this upcoming season. It appears Shatkins are going to make sure EE and JB produce this year before unloading the Brinks truck for them (if at all). If the players are getting upset this point that the Jays don't want to meet their demands, let them. I'm thinking everyone will be happier to talk after another successful season. If by that time they're still hurt about not getting the contract of their dreams during spring training, let them walk (obviously assuming the Jays want them/offer them a market rate contract). It's not like these guys are Harper or Trout, there's no reason to try to sign them early to a long term deal. A good year by EE or JB is not going to increase their value as much as a bad one will crater their value. Giving these guys huge deals now might (although unlikely, and not in the interest of Jays fans anywhere) look really dumb by the end of this season, nevermind the 3-5 years after that. Players age, JB and EE want to be paid like they won't age, let them prove it this season.

BlueJaysMessageBoards......you know Opening Day is close when the wagering starts.

Maybe because you don't understand how expensive large commercial buildings are to renovate and maintain? Especially doing something unusual...like putting grass indoors. It's not a backyard, where you can just spread some dirt and sprinkle some grass seed.

Tough draw for Ukraine. Also, re the MLS growth from the posts from 6 months ago - the problem with the MLS now is the league structure, where the best imports get shuffled off to the biggest markets. They're almost trying to bring in the EPL model but with a salary cap. It's a pretty screwed up system, I don't know if it works in the long run. It was smart as a way of getting the league going, but it appears to be outgrowing it pretty quickly, and the system runs counter to the facade of "parity" that all major North American sports leagues put on (except maybe the NBA?).

Money Manziel is back!!! http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/12/johnny_manziel_signs_100_bill.html#incart_river_index

At the very least, it would be fun to try in an MLB The Show Franchise. I'm definitely doing this over the holidays when I get some time lol.

I like article's like this, they calm everyone down with a dose of reality when major signings happen: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/theres-an-85-percent-chance-the-cubs-wont-win-the-world-series-next-year-either/ I mean, no doubt the Cubs have a great team, but let's not crown them just yet.

4 million for .5 WAR appears to be the going rate, so in the right scenario I think, yes, someone wants that. Our roster might be the best fit as currently constructed though. The real downside with Smoak is not that he's average, it's that he has no positional versatility. Platoon bats are way more useful when they can do more than 1B/DH

He also only played part time last year...Steamer has him a .4 WAR in 386PA next year.

Exactly, they might as well figure out if he can start or not. Otherwise, he can always pitch the 7th or 8th, we know he can do that. I get your point about not sending Osuna to the minors, are you thinking they will put him as a start for ST? It seems like a waste to put such a young talented guy in the pen without seeing what could be.

So let me capture your logic....you are criticizing the current rotation for lacking depth, while also prefering the rotation that is much weaker depth wise. Also, I didn't include Chavez in rotation 1 since thought I recalled you not being a fan of that trade. I don't really know what more could be expected of the FO at this time regarding pitching if they weren't going to go get the big guys. Given the complete lack of depth we would have had if we signed one of the top guys, and the payroll constraints that would have come with that, I don't really know how you can fault the rotation as currently constructed.

1. Stroman 2. Dickey 3. Estrada 4. Happ 5. Hutchison 6. Chavez is better depth than 1. Price 2. Stroman 3. Dickey 4. Hutchison 5. ? 6. ? I don't know what that works out to WAR-wise, but maybe some has or can do so. Also not sure if there has been any comparisons of expected WAR vs results for rotations that are low on depth. Like conceptually it seems to make more sense to have a balanced rotation than a top heavy one, but I'd be interested to see some analysis on that. I'm sure it's out there, just not going to find it right now. In any case, agreed that more depth has to be added to both the rotation and the pen.

I agree with this. Sanchez and Osuna in AAA with some good relievers at the MLB level would be ideal. With what's left on the market, is it possible to get enough firepower in the bullpen to rationalize sending one of them to AAA? I hope.

[table] [thead][tr][th]Rk[/th][th]Pos[/th][th]Name[/th][th]Age[/th][th]W[/th][th]L[/th][th]W-L%[/th][th]ERA[/th][th]G[/th][th]GS[/th][/tr][/thead] [tr][td]1[/td][td]SP[/td][td]R.A. Dickey[/td][td]40[/td][td]11[/td][td]11[/td][td].500[/td][td]3.91[/td][td]33[/td][td]33[/td][/tr] [tr][td]2[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Mark Buehrle*[/td][td]36[/td][td]15[/td][td]8[/td][td].652[/td][td]3.81[/td][td]32[/td][td]32[/td][/tr] [tr][td]3[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Marco Estrada[/td][td]31[/td][td]13[/td][td]8[/td][td].619[/td][td]3.13[/td][td]34[/td][td]28[/td][/tr] [tr][td]4[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Drew Hutchison[/td][td]24[/td][td]13[/td][td]5[/td][td].722[/td][td]5.57[/td][td]30[/td][td]28[/td][/tr] [tr][td]5[/td][td]SP[/td][td]David Price*[/td][td]29[/td][td]9[/td][td]1[/td][td].900[/td][td]2.30[/td][td]11[/td][td]11[/td][/tr] [tr][td]6[/td][td]RP[/td][td]Aaron Sanchez[/td][td]22[/td][td]7[/td][td]6[/td][td].538[/td][td]3.22[/td][td]41[/td][td]11[/td][/tr] [tr][td]7[/td][td][/td][td]Daniel Norris*[/td][td]22[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td].500[/td][td]3.86[/td][td]5[/td][td]5[/td][/tr] [tr][td]8[/td][td][/td][td]Marcus Stroman[/td][td]24[/td][td]4[/td][td]0[/td][td]1.000[/td][td]1.67[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][/tr] [tr][td]9[/td][td][/td][td]Felix Doubront*[/td][td]27[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td].500[/td][td]4.76[/td][td]5[/td][td]4[/td][/tr] [tr][td]10[/td][td][/td][td]Scott Copeland[/td][td]27[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td].500[/td][td]6.46[/td][td]5[/td][td]3[/td][/tr] [tr][td]11[/td][td][/td][td]Matt Boyd*[/td][td]24[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td].000[/td][td]14.85[/td][td]2[/td][td]2[/td][/tr] [tr][td]12[/td][td][/td][td]Todd Redmond[/td][td]30[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td][/td][td]7.31[/td][td]7[/td][td]1[/td][/tr] [/table] Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 12/11/2015. No, but Buehrle is gone. If even you had signed Price and he and Stroman starts 30+ and you lose Estrada and Buehrle, you're still missing 15 starts by players who actually belong in a ML rotation. Plus the fact you'd rather not have the likes of Hutch and Sanchez pick up the amount of starts they did at the quality they offered. So, no there wasn't a depth issue in 2015, but don't kid yourself into thinking there wasn't one looming for 2016.

You got it. The idea is about spreading the risk around. Baseball is unique in that SPs only start every 5 days, not like a basketball or football team where your best players (barring injury) are going out there almost every single game. Brady and Rodgers QB 100% of games, not 20% like Ace SPs. So yes, I think not leaving gapping holes at the back of a rotation is sound roster construction.

Well any team will have to start lesser pitchers if their top 5 get hurt, that's why you get depth, which is exactly what Shapiro has done. Makes more sense to me than giving starts to these guys in 2013: [table] [thead][tr][th]Rk[/th][th]Pos[/th][th]Name[/th][th]Age[/th][th]W[/th][th]L[/th][th]W-L%[/th][th]ERA[/th][th]G[/th][th]GS[/th][th]GF[/th][/tr][/thead] [tr][td]1[/td][td]SP[/td][td]R.A. Dickey[/td][td]38[/td][td]14[/td][td]13[/td][td].519[/td][td]4.21[/td][td]34[/td][td]34[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]2[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Mark Buehrle*[/td][td]34[/td][td]12[/td][td]10[/td][td].545[/td][td]4.15[/td][td]33[/td][td]33[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]3[/td][td][/td][td]Esmil Rogers[/td][td]27[/td][td]5[/td][td]9[/td][td].357[/td][td]4.77[/td][td]44[/td][td]20[/td][td]5[/td][/tr] [tr][td]4[/td][td]SP[/td][td]J.A. Happ*[/td][td]30[/td][td]5[/td][td]7[/td][td].417[/td][td]4.56[/td][td]18[/td][td]18[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]5[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Josh Johnson[/td][td]29[/td][td]2[/td][td]8[/td][td].200[/td][td]6.20[/td][td]16[/td][td]16[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]6[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Todd Redmond[/td][td]28[/td][td]4[/td][td]3[/td][td].571[/td][td]4.32[/td][td]17[/td][td]14[/td][td]2[/td][/tr] [tr][td]7[/td][td][/td][td]Brandon Morrow[/td][td]28[/td][td]2[/td][td]3[/td][td].400[/td][td]5.63[/td][td]10[/td][td]10[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]8[/td][td][/td][td]Chien-Ming Wang[/td][td]33[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td].333[/td][td]7.67[/td][td]6[/td][td]6[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]9[/td][td][/td][td]Ramon Ortiz[/td][td]40[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td].333[/td][td]6.04[/td][td]7[/td][td]4[/td][td]1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]10[/td][td][/td][td]Chad Jenkins[/td][td]25[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][td]1.000[/td][td]2.70[/td][td]10[/td][td]3[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]11[/td][td][/td][td]Ricky Romero*[/td][td]28[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td].000[/td][td]11.05[/td][td]4[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][/tr] [tr][td]12[/td][td][/td][td]Aaron Laffey*[/td][td]28[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][td][/td][td]6.75[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [tr][td]13[/td][td][/td][td]Sean Nolin*[/td][td]23[/td][td]0[/td][td]1[/td][td].000[/td][td]40.50[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][/tr] [/table] Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 12/11/2015. Or these guys in 2012: [table] [thead][tr][th]Rk[/th][th]Pos[/th][th]Name[/th][th]Age[/th][th]W[/th][th]L[/th][th]W-L%[/th][th]ERA[/th][th]G[/th][th]GS[/th][/tr][/thead] [tr][td]1[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Ricky Romero*[/td][td]27[/td][td]9[/td][td]14[/td][td].391[/td][td]5.77[/td][td]32[/td][td]32[/td][/tr] [tr][td]2[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Henderson Alvarez[/td][td]22[/td][td]9[/td][td]14[/td][td].391[/td][td]4.85[/td][td]31[/td][td]31[/td][/tr] [tr][td]3[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Brandon Morrow[/td][td]27[/td][td]10[/td][td]7[/td][td].588[/td][td]2.96[/td][td]21[/td][td]21[/td][/tr] [tr][td]4[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Aaron Laffey*[/td][td]27[/td][td]4[/td][td]6[/td][td].400[/td][td]4.56[/td][td]22[/td][td]16[/td][/tr] [tr][td]5[/td][td]RP[/td][td]Carlos Villanueva[/td][td]28[/td][td]7[/td][td]7[/td][td].500[/td][td]4.16[/td][td]38[/td][td]16[/td][/tr] [tr][td]6[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Kyle Drabek[/td][td]24[/td][td]4[/td][td]7[/td][td].364[/td][td]4.67[/td][td]13[/td][td]13[/td][/tr] [tr][td]7[/td][td]SP[/td][td]Drew Hutchison[/td][td]21[/td][td]5[/td][td]3[/td][td].625[/td][td]4.60[/td][td]11[/td][td]11[/td][/tr] [tr][td]8[/td][td][/td][td]Brett Cecil*[/td][td]25[/td][td]2[/td][td]4[/td][td].333[/td][td]5.72[/td][td]21[/td][td]9[/td][/tr] [tr][td]9[/td][td][/td][td]J.A. Happ*[/td][td]29[/td][td]3[/td][td]2[/td][td].600[/td][td]4.69[/td][td]10[/td][td]6[/td][/tr] [tr][td]10[/td][td][/td][td]Chad Jenkins[/td][td]24[/td][td]1[/td][td]3[/td][td].250[/td][td]4.50[/td][td]13[/td][td]3[/td][/tr] [tr][td]11[/td][td][/td][td]Joel Carreno[/td][td]25[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td].000[/td][td]6.14[/td][td]11[/td][td]2[/td][/tr] [tr][td]12[/td][td][/td][td]Jesse Chavez[/td][td]28[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td].500[/td][td]8.44[/td][td]9[/td][td]2[/td][/tr] [/table] Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 12/11/2015. Depth is good. Teams that are going to compete don't go into the season with 1. Ace (Price) 2. #2 (Stroman) 3. #3 (Dickey) 4. ???? (Scrap-heap) 5 ???? (AAAA) Doesn't matter how good the top 3 are, even in a best case scenario those guys are only starting 60% of the time. You have to play to win every game, not just 60% of them.

Thanks! A true Spanky99 welcome to the board.

Some short, unsolicited thoughts on the off-season so far: - The approach to go for 2 starters rather than one was a good one. Starting pitching depth has been a concern for a long time (as long as I can remember). Throwing starts to garbage pitchers as early as May some years got the team in a big hole, so this is promising. - No new bats - well I guess we're spoiled now, and there's not much that could be done right now. There's a bit of surplus around the edges (Cola/Smoak, Saunders/ Revere, Goins/Barney) so maybe a trade happens as the off-season progresses to clear up the 25 man. If not, depth is good. - Still waiting on relievers: I'd venture they're waiting for the musical chairs to end with the goal of picking the last man standing up on the cheap, I just hope it works out. Middle of the road relievers seem really hit and miss and terribly inconsistent, so let's just hope they hit on who they get. - It would be ideal to have Hutch, Sanchez and Osuna start in AAA, but I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks!

Hi, new here. Lurked on the old board since sometime in 2010/2011 and lurked over here. Made accounts in both but never really posted. Might get a little more active. I've learnt a lot already on this board about baseball generally, and I especially like the stats focus. Also seems like a good group of posters. One little question, it appears my money Manziel profile pic is not showing up, any one know why that might be the case?

ClevelandBrownsFan2 - the guy whose contributions to date are: - 2 Cleveland Browns related post - Repost of a Verducci article about PRODUKSHUN - Posts in this thread advocating for his rookie year eligibility to not start until 2016 Solid candidate right there, imo

Shouldn't rookie eligibility be some combination of join date + amount of posts? I feel like we should have the ability to manipulate member service time on this board, it would only be fitting.

From 6 year (old board) lurker to MVP candidate! That would essentially make me Jose Bautista circa 2010

How many posts does one have to stay under to retain rookie eligibility for 2016? How is service time calculated on BJMB?

Interesting read on why there might not be much chatter on Heyward (Verducci I know, please don't get angry) http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/12/09/jason-heyward-free-agent-winter-meetings tl;dr Lots of managers are old-school and still care about things like RUNZ Any chance one of the managers quoted is Gibby?