BigCecil

Its hard to argue the Orioles aren’t in a better spot going forward, but the Jays had chances in 2021 and 2022 when the Orioles weren’t good enough to compete yet.

 

If we made a deep run in 2021 or 2022 are we looking at this period as a failure?? Idk just had bad breaks both years. We wasted 2 seasons of great teams. Now we’ll have to battle it out with the rest of the AL East teams and it will definitely be harder.

 

Also I’m not convinced the Orioles will actually sign any significant free agent pitchers so they won’t be as good as they could be. Angelos is a hack

Fair points. From a business perspective only the route the FO has gone, aside from the payroll cost increase of free agents and Arb years, may have been better for owners and fans. We put "competitive" product on the field making the short season post season during covid, missed playoffs by a game, made playoffs and lost wildcard last year. That keeps bums in seats and eyeballs even if it can feel like a sugar high after. Will it be sustainable? That remains to be seen.

Deeper runs in the playoffs definitely give an impression of more success and affect perceptions. Jose's bat flip, Edwins wild card walk off and Donaldson's dash slide at home on the wild throw to beat TEX (again) are burned into Jay's lore. Also Navarro and Revere getting f***ed by Nelson in '15. Allowed us to blame the ump & not the players.

If we don't blow game 2 and come back to beat SEA in '22 for a real run, we are probably taking about Teo's 2 home runs as the turning point for a long time. Some have the view once you get in its all luck. Its plays a big role but its not just luck IMO.

Just so people don’t forget every trade, here’s a list of all of them from 2015/16 off-season up to 2019/20 under Atkins.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/04/gm-trade-history-blue-jays-ross-atkins.html

 

They are largely inconsequential moves.

 

The big ones are obviously the Hutchison trade for Liriano which turn into the Liriano trade for Teoscar. Win and win.

The Osuna deal for Giles. Win

Grichuk acquired. push? Spare parts used to get him but then he was good, then sucked then traded for a baby giraffe.

Donaldson traded for Merriweather. Loss.

The Stroman deal. Loss.

 

The underrated move in there was getting Samad Taylor in the Joe Smith trade, since Taylor was used to bring in Merrifield.

 

Realistically the rest of those trades were all in the retooling phase just trying to keep a .500ish team on the field and selling aging vets with no real use for any minor leaguers he could to try and hit the lotto.

 

Gotta remember they were never going to go full tank for 5 seasons playing .290-.400 ball like Baltimore did instead. This market would never accept that kind of ongoing dumpster fire

Until fans were reinvigorated nationally in 15 & 16 we hadn't been in the post season since 1993 and the franchise put up with a lot of lean years in the wilderness. Some pretty bad teams.

Agreed that it would take a ton of intestinal fortitude and a real plan from owners/FO, but it could have been a realistic option if you had a clear idea what it would ultimately result in, and communicated that well to fans. We kinda went with a half pregnant approach. Its a tough one for sure.

Hard to believe we faced off in WC 2016 and here we are in '23 where it all ended up. Who is in a better spot going forward?

The issue is outside of Manoah they haven't acquired, traded for and developed much talent from their losing cycle 2017-2019.

 

Vlad was signed in 2015, Jansen drafted in 2014, Bo, Kirk, Moreno signed/drafted in 2016. Gurriel in 2017.

 

Stroman trade was useless. 5th overall pick became useless. Pillar/Donaldson traded too late. None of the little trades they made at the deadline (other than Hernandez in 2017) got much of use I don't think.

 

If they had won 110 games a year from 2017 to 2019 Manoah wouldn't be here, but other than that not sure anything would be different about the team. Even the Chapman trade was done with assetts a winning team could have.

 

So there was no rebuild. This team is made of players acquired during the 2 ALCS years basically, and free agents vet-trades. No 'rebuild' type moves have worked at all.

LGJ signed in late '16 too. Spent time as IF on our ML AA & AAA over 3 seasons 17-19 coming from Cuba. But ya this assessment is kind of hard to argue with.

Not really too concerned…. He’s a great hitter. I think maybe his conditioning this offseason went out the window with his Wife’s pregnancy and birth during spring training. That few weeks of missed time really f***ed him.

 

I’m really just seeing parallels with Vladdy’s 2020. Kirk has to work on his weight this offseason.

I think his conditioning every off season has gone out the window. If he doesn't lay off the churros and go like Vlad has he wont sustain the career he has the potential to have. Which is unfortunate because he is a great story coming out of Tijuana as a nobody making the bigs.

Speaking of catchers with noodle bats Kirk has an AVG EV - 4th percentile. 18th percentile hard hit rate.

His BB rate and K rate are elite. Unfortunately when he does make contact with runners on its often a rollover GIDP.

Anyone concerned about him?

Japan is ruthless. No mlb team would have demoted him to the minors that fast.

Yep. Bauer clearly has modelled his career after the Kamikaze pilots of WW2.

Schneider is not the one. He's not even close to good enough.

The FO already hired and fired Buntoyo. Hired and extended Schneider. Hard to see Atkins use another lifeline and fire another Manager that he hired. I don’t think he is anything special but I don’t think John is a material issue for the team. Players have to perform, and overall they are not consistently enough. Incredibly we are still on an 88 win pace.

Nah, not with you, friendo.

No worries. All good.

Jansen catching Manoah, interesting.

Honestly Kirk caught him all last season and nobody complained. I thinks its much about nothing. Jano cant make his SL break more or tick up that FB V.

But when struggling sometimes you just need to shake things up and try another route so I'm good with it.

You want to bet a $100 that Varsho out WARS LGJ??? An admin can hold the cash, I'm already sending it.

Im gonna take that bet Spank if I can get in on it.

Not because I don't like Varsho or his glove and not because LGJ is a WAR machine in the past - but he is in his walk year and I expected his power to return in '23. Under rated bat to ball skills and his pitch selection has improved. His D sucks but think he is going to have his best offensive year by a lot. (I'll also be happy to be wrong and pay up if I lose)

Good Richards, that change is filth.

Infamous last words when watching the silver fox. Just ask Jonn

I'm assuming people like this or something? The MLBN does Wednesday s*** like this on their network where ex-players shoot the s*** etc, weird.

Have you seen Arod’s alternative commentary show during Sunday night baseball? Insufferable. Unwatchable.

Was that when they had 4 people in the booth?

Yep. 4 too many

What? So Teo ran into Altuve while he was on Houston and that's why you think the Jays didn't develop him after trading for him? He was a toolsy nobody when we traded for him. We gave up Liriano, a bullpen pitcher on an expiring contract for him. He had no value. We developed him into a legit ML ball player who had some fantastic years in Toronto.

 

Did we develop him into Andruw Jones? No we did not, but he was very good player.

 

As for Lourdes - I don't give a f*** what he played in Cuba. Lots of players come up as middle infielders and have to move to new positions by the time they hit the majors. Not many 6'4" players stick at SS.

 

The reality is we haven't drafted many OFers over the past 10 years, which seems to be a strategy.

 

Alan Roden

Jaden Rudd

Zack Britton

Dasan Brown

Will Robertson

Griffen Conine

JP Woodman

 

Who am I missing? JD Davis in 2012? It is interesting to see how few draft picks the Jays have spent on OFers though...Corner OFers do seem to be one of the easiest/cheapest positions in baseball to fill. CF - not so much. Big time cost.

Obviously my point was he was developed as an OF by HOU and in the Majors at that position. The running into Altuve was just something that was a big deal when he was playing in the OF in the majors for another organization. Teo was already a developed OF. Thus, its a stretch to say the Jays developed him as an OF. Yes, he became a star with the Jays. Who we traded for him, heist that it was, is not relevant to this discussion. Ironically Teo got traded for a RP on the way in and on the way out of TOR.

Bautista was largely an IF for PITT. He became an OF and star once he got to the Jays. Did the Jays develop him as an OF?

LGJ was an IF in his Jays ML development phase 2017-19. I believe mostly at 2B. Not talking about Cuba. He got moved to the OF in the Majors because they wanted his bat in the line up. I guess you could say we developed him as a OF. Aside from the fact he pretty much sucked in the position.

The issue of who becomes a much better producing player after we put them in our OF is potentially "developing them as an OF" but I'm thinking of a prospect who comes up through our ML system in the OF and then progresses at the ML level in that position.

I don't want to argue about it. I take your point. I just see it a bit differently.

um....Lordes Gurriel? Or do you not count international signings? I'd also suggest we developed Teo.

LGJ was an IF through development. Got the Yips at 2B so they plopped him in LF in the Majors. At least thats what I remember.

Saying we developed Teo as an OF would be a stretch I think. He almost killed Altuve running into him, from the OF, with HOU.

Cards are back, it really didn't make sense.

HOU is rolling now too.