So, 4 years in, are you guys still as confident in Shapiro and/or Atkins?

[5ToolPhenom]

I'm sorta conflicted on this personally. I know Shapiro has a lot of experience, but this is Atkins' first time being a GM. I sort of assumed Shapiro would be doing double duty as president and GM but he's stressed that wouldn't be the case and that player personnel would be ran by Atkins.

 

Atkins has done a pretty good job at replenishing the farm, but even so, this team looks a long way away from being competitive. The lack of pitching in the pipeline seems like a bit of a concern. Some of the highly touted young guys like Gurriel Jr don't look all that impressive either.

 

Even if the MLB team is respectable in 2-3 years (which is certainly no guarantee), we still have the Yanks and Sox to compete with and the Rays look poised to be a threat for years to come.

 

I've read this forum for years and have mostly lurked so I realize that the management is super popular here, but we're slated for an UGLY season and it's the 4th year under the new management already. I personally would've hoped for a little more progress by now.

Edited April 5, 2019 by 5ToolPhenom

[Spanky99]

Confident, they're doing what AA was doing until he went full tard in '13.

[Spanky99]

I'm sorta conflicted on this personally. I know Shapiro has a lot of experience, but this is Atkins' first time being a GM. I sort of assumed Shapiro would be doing double duty as president and GM but he's stressed that wouldn't be the case and that player personnel would be ran by Atkins .

 

Atkins has done a pretty good job at replenishing the farm, but even so, this team looks a long way away from being competitive. The lack of pitching in the pipeline seems like a bit of a concern. Some of the highly touted young guys like Gurriel Jr don't look all that impressive either.

 

Even if the MLB team is respectable in 2-3 years (which is certainly no guarantee), we still have the Yanks and Sox to compete with and the Rays look poised to be a threat for years to come.

 

I've read this forum for years and have mostly lurked so I realize that the management is super popular here, but we're slated for an UGLY season and it's the 4th year under the new management already. I personally would've hoped for a little more progress by now.

 

Many holes in this lad, but good conversation.

[Abomination]

I personally would've hoped for a little more progress by now.

 

They really only started to tear it down last trade deadline, so calling it a lack of progress is pretty unfair. We replenished our farm system and then some (especially at the high end) while still trying to compete the last 2 years, and are now in a position to build a new core in two year time frame. I'd say it's going quite well.

[BlueRocky]

I'm sorta conflicted on this personally. I know Shapiro has a lot of experience, but this is Atkins' first time being a GM. I sort of assumed Shapiro would be doing double duty as president and GM but he's stressed that wouldn't be the case and that player personnel would be ran by Atkins .

 

Atkins has done a pretty good job at replenishing the farm, but even so, this team looks a long way away from being competitive. The lack of pitching in the pipeline seems like a bit of a concern. Some of the highly touted young guys like Gurriel Jr don't look all that impressive either.

 

Even if the MLB team is respectable in 2-3 years (which is certainly no guarantee), we still have the Yanks and Sox to compete with and the Rays look poised to be a threat for years to come.

 

I've read this forum for years and have mostly lurked so I realize that the management is super popular here, but we're slated for an UGLY season and it's the 4th year under the new management already. I personally would've hoped for a little more progress by now.

 

They inherited a very old team. Sure, not all their moves were good decisions..

 

some were good (e.g. drafting Bichette, drafting Pearson, Diaz trade for Thornton, Leone & Green trade for Grichuk, not giving Joey Bats 5 years, flipping pitchers for prospects like S.W. Oh)

 

some were debatable (e.g. Tulowitzki released, Martin trade, Happ trade, Osuna trade, Morales signing, Edwin situation, Vlad service time manipulation)

 

some were just bad (e.g. Whole Donaldson situation)

 

but these same things could be said about any GM, it usually a mix of good and poor decisions because half the time they’re just making an educated guess and don’t have a crystal ball.

 

Yes some of their moves were questionable, but you can only play the hand you’re dealt. And hindsigh is always 20/20. They were dealt a pretty s***** hand—the farm system was depleted, the roster was old, and fans wanted another run with the old guys.

 

What would you have done differently for that little bit more progress compared to what they did?

 

They really only started to tear it down last trade deadline, so calling it a lack of progress is pretty unfair. We replenished our farm system and then some (especially at the high end) while still trying to compete the last 2 years, and are now in a position to build a new core in two year time frame. I'd say it's going quite well.

 

I agree.

[5ToolPhenom]

@ Spanky 99: I know, I know, a little reactionary and surely a response from excitedly watching the first week of Jays games. I realize that if Vlad and Bo are up later in the year tearin' the cover off of the ball that fan morale would be a lot higher. But as we all know, it takes more than a few star sluggers to build a team.

 

I think ultimately that these guys should have went full rebuild during or after the 2017 season. Of course there's a lot of speculation that these guys were under Rogers orders but still....I think they could've been able to transit into the rebuilding mode a little smoother and less painfully.

 

All thing considered , I'm a little less enthusiastic of the next 2 years than the majority of the fan-base. But we'll see.

[SAAviour]

Brito and Hansen and first things I’ve really questioned...wtf are they doing on the 25 man roster. Put them in AAA where AAAA players belong. If we lose them on waivers who cares.

[5ToolPhenom]

They really only started to tear it down last trade deadline, so calling it a lack of progress is pretty unfair. We replenished our farm system and then some (especially at the high end) while still trying to compete the last 2 years, and are now in a position to build a new core in two year time frame. I'd say it's going quite well.

 

Be that as it may, but wasn't their game-plan to rebuild while still trying to stay competitive and respectable? That approach surely failed and now they're fully tearing down a team that many smart fans believe should've been torn down after the 2017 season.

 

Sure, there's a couple exciting prospects in the pipeline, but is the framework really there in order to be a threat in 2021 in what will surely be a tough division? Hell, forget 2021, I seem to recall Shapiro tossing around 2020 as the benchmark for the team to be rolling again... That seems like all but a wet-dream at this point.

 

Again, I'm not trying to hate on the management, but they're very popular here and I've seen literally no second-guessing of these guys and I'm not quite understanding all of the enthusiasm behind these guys at this point.

[BlueRocky]

They really should’ve been sellers at 2017, but waited until 2018 deadline. So I’ll grant you that.

Probably could've gotten a bit more for guys like Donaldson.

But in that alternate universe we are likely still a very bad team in 2019, maybe with one or two more good prospects.

A lot of dominos would change but the direction would be similar.

 

Even if you started cleaning house in 2017, your top 10 prospects would’ve still needed minor league playing time to develop. Bo and Vlad would still need their AA development in 2018 and AAA in 2019. Pearson would’ve still broke his arm.

 

And even if we bumped up two or three spots in the draft for 2018, I am very happy we got the Groshans & Kloffenstein package. There’s only a couple guys drafted infront of him I would’ve rather have (hindsight of course)

 

My point is, in 2019 in that alternate universe we are still rebuilding and a 75 Win team at best.

 

I actually second guess this front office all the time, but usually can understand the logic behind their decisions. Don’t always agree with them though.

Edited April 5, 2019 by BlueRocky

[5ToolPhenom]

What would you have done differently for that little bit more progress compared to what they did?

 

I would've tore things down at the 2017 deadline or after the season. At that point it was clear that things were falling apart and it was clear that the Sox and Yankees were surging... To half-ass things for the 2018 season in hopes that everything might break right and that they get a WC position seemed senseless.

[5ToolPhenom]

They really should’ve been sellers at 2017, but waited until 2018 deadline. So I’ll grant you that.

Probably could've gotten a bit more for guys like Donaldson.

But in that alternate universe we are likely still a very bad team in 2019, maybe with one or two more good prospects.

A lot of dominos would change but the direction would be similar.

 

I see your point, but Shapiro and Atkins were running the show since the end of the 2015 season. They had time to make some hawkish trades, get the ball rolling, ensure that the transition to a younger team went smoothly, but they kinda punted it. They obviously weren't in an ideal position with AA and Beeston selling the farm, but I dunno, they've been pretty hit and miss since taking over.

[Grant77]

I was more confident before this terrible offseason, but I still like what they have done in general.

 

The drafting is still reasonably good, without much of a change from the Anthopoulos regime. I love some of the moves like the Happ signing and the Grichuk trade, while some other moves like the Morales signing were highly questionable from the start.

 

Shapiro has done this before and found success so I will give him the benefit of the doubt for a while longer. However, the past calendar year has been an unmitigated disaster so they don't have forever. They failed to get adequate value in trades for veterans on several occasions, they failed to find players that will be on the next winning Jays team, and they have failed to provide an adequate roster for 2019, despite many opportunities to do so. I hope that this changes very soon.

[WryNGinger]

The way I see it is, of the teams with the top 5 (maybe 10) farm systems in the majors right now, how many of them legitimately competed for the world series in the last 5 years? I am satisfied with the way the team has transitioned from going for it all to building a base that has a chance to be elite in the next 5 years. Many teams have tried to transition and have failed before they even got to where the Jays are now.

[5ToolPhenom]

Brito and Hansen and first things I’ve really questioned...wtf are they doing on the 25 man roster. Put them in AAA where AAAA players belong. If we lose them on waivers who cares.

 

I can sorta understand keeping Hanson, see if he can be a placeholder and a serviceable utility infielder since I assume the Giants wanted the Jays to take him off their hands. But I don't see the appeal in Brito at all. Seems like they're just trying to to score a diamond in the rough off of the scrap heap... Why waste the resources and time?

[Bobthe4th]

I would've tore things down at the 2017 deadline or after the season. At that point it was clear that things were falling apart and it was clear that the Sox and Yankees were surging... To half-ass things for the 2018 season in hopes that everything might break right and that they get a WC position seemed senseless.

 

TBF Donaldson, Stroman and Happ would have been the only players to bring in significantly more if they were traded in the 2017 offseason. It’s very unlikely that the MLB roster would be in better shape right now, we’d just have a few more prospects.

[Abomination]

Brito and Hansen and first things I’ve really questioned...wtf are they doing on the 25 man roster. Put them in AAA where AAAA players belong. If we lose them on waivers who cares.

 

I don't think they expected to be able to trade Morales and Pillar, and once that happened and they decided some of the kids needed some more everyday at bats, then they needed some filler that can clog up the bench and shake some pom poms.

 

Really, Brito is probably the ceiling of the guy we gave up to get him, so we probably upgraded there regardless. We simply got crap that's a slightly more pleasant consistency.

Hanson might not have been our idea, but he has played a SSS decent SS and CF with other experience around the diamond, so in a rebuilding year that could have some value even if he couldn't even hit himself with his own bat if he tried. The other two guys both hold some intrigue imo, and are more the kind of lottery tickets you'd expect for Pillar. I'm not really sure there's anything to question.

[5ToolPhenom]

I was more confident before this terrible offseason, but I still like what they have done in general.

 

The drafting is still reasonably good, without much of a change from the Anthopoulos regime. I love some of the moves like the Happ signing and the Grichuk trade, while some other moves like the Morales signing were highly questionable from the start.

 

Shapiro has done this before and found success so I will give him the benefit of the doubt for a while longer. However, the past calendar year has been an unmitigated disaster so they don't have forever. They failed to get adequate value in trades for veterans on several occasions, they failed to find players that will be on the next winning Jays team, and they have failed to provide an adequate roster for 2019, despite many opportunities to do so. I hope that this changes very soon.

 

Nicely put. I agree on most points. It's frustrating cause the starting pitching has looked great, so if they could have added some cheap short term pieces in the pen and in the OF then who knows who 2019 would've shaped up. Maybe it's just a cold start, but I have reservations of adding important prospects like Vlad and Bo to a tire-fire of a team.

[5ToolPhenom]

TBF Donaldson, Stroman and Happ would have been the only players to bring in significantly more if they were traded in the 2017 offseason. It’s very unlikely that the MLB roster would be in better shape right now, we’d just have a few more prospects.

 

I disagree. Guys like Martin and Pillar at the 2017 deadline would've netted a lot more then than what they ended up getting for em. So that's 5 players right there that they probably kinda botched.

[Spanky99]

@ Spanky 99: I know, I know, a little reactionary and surely a response from excitedly watching the first week of Jays games. I realize that if Vlad and Bo are up later in the year tearin' the cover off of the ball that fan morale would be a lot higher. But as we all know, it takes more than a few star sluggers to build a team.

 

I think ultimately that these guys should have went full rebuild during or after the 2017 season. Of course there's a lot of speculation that these guys were under Rogers orders but still....I think they could've been able to transit into the rebuilding mode a little smoother and less painfully.

 

All thing considered , I'm a little less enthusiastic of the next 2 years than the majority of the fan-base. But we'll see.

 

Shapiro said as much on the former, as for the latter, patience.

[Bobthe4th]

I disagree. Guys like Martin and Pillar at the 2017 deadline would've netted a lot more then than what they ended up getting for em. So that's 5 players right there that they probably kinda botched.

 

Depends what you mean by a lot I guess. In 2017 a 34 year old catcher and a light hitting CF were not going to bring in a return that would transform the current team.

[Spanky99]

Depends what you mean by a lot I guess. In 2017 a 34 year old catcher and a light hitting CF were not going to bring in a return that would transform the current team.

 

They've done what they could, from here on out is rather inclusive and huge.

[5ToolPhenom]

Perhaps, they would've at least got more for them than they ended up getting... A theme with them regarding established players that they traded.

 

It'll be interesting to see how much rope Rogers gives these guys. Most Canadian fans are super fickle, so if attendance and viewership plummets for the next couple years, there's gonna be a lot of panicking

[Spanky99]

I disagree. Guys like Martin and Pillar at the 2017 deadline would've netted a lot more then than what they ended up getting for em. So that's 5 players right there that they probably kinda botched.

 

Let me grab you a tiny violin.

[Spanky99]

Perhaps, they would've at least got more for them than they ended up getting... A theme with them regarding established players that they traded.

 

It'll be interesting to see how much rope Rogers gives these guys. Most Canadian fans are super fickle, so if attendance and viewership plummets for the next couple years, there's gonna be a lot of panicking

 

No, maybe from you, sure.

[5ToolPhenom]

Man, even the Happ returns don't move the needle much... One of the hot-ticket chips at the deadline.

[Spanky99]

Man, even the Happ returns don't move the needle much... One of the hot-ticket chips at the deadline.

 

Go Ice fishing, now!

[5ToolPhenom]

No, maybe from you, sure.

 

Nah, I love my Jays. The dome looked pretty bare for the opening series and after though, can't be a good sign. Hopefully Vlad will restore some goodwill with the casuals.

[Bobthe4th]

It'll be interesting to see how much rope Rogers gives these guys. Most Canadian fans are super fickle, so if attendance and viewership plummets for the next couple years, there's gonna be a lot of panicking

 

IMO the fate of Shatkins mainly depends on if Vlad succeeds (seems like overeating & injuries are the only thing that can prevent that), what happens with Sanchez and Stroman (traded / extended / injured), and how many of the other top prospects make it.

 

If the above all go well, then spending money to complement a solid foundation (something that Shapiro never really got to do in Cleveland) is the big test. If the above don’t go well then Shatkins won’t get the chance and they will be out in 4/5 years at most.

[Spanky99]

Nah, I love my Jays. The dome looked pretty bare for the opening series and after though, can't be a good sign. Hopefully Vlad will restore some goodwill with the casuals.

 

Who cares?

[Barkerfan23]

Yeah the player they had nothing to do with, that AA was able to sign because of his connections, must succeed to save Shatkins