apoc10

I think Cahill is a young pitcher(25) who has experience pitching and the AL and has remained healthy. He could deliver 200 innings for the squad. Isn't that #1/#2 starter we are looking for, but definitely could be #3 and maintain stability in the rotation without giving up much. Sell high on Cecil is something that I would totally be game with. Cahill's contract is also not too bad, and if we could grab owings who is a young 2B, than that'd be awesome.

http://insidethezona.com/2013/11/diamondbacks-trade-match-toronto-blue-jays/ This is from a diamondbacks fan. There trade pieces are Tyler Skaggs, Trevor Cahill, Randall Delagado, Chris Owings. Possible trades: 1. SS/2B Chris Owings and C Michael Perez for LHP Brett Cecil and RHP John Stilson 2. RHP Trevor Cahill for LHP Brett Cecil 3. RHP Trevor Cahill, SS/2B Chris Owings, and $4M for LHP Brett Cecil, RHP Marcus Stroman, and LHP Daniel Norris. I would take #2 trade in a heartbeat and #3, I'd adjust and Arizona doesn't include any cash, and we switch out Stroman for Stilson.

I'm wondering if AA is looking at Matt Kemp for a possible three way trade. Here's another hair brained scheme. You have the dodgers who have Matt Kemp and are looking to move him and just signed Guerreo for their SS position. They have a hole at 3B and 2B, so they could move Hanley to 3B or Guerro to 2B, so they could use either a 3B, 2B, or SS. The Jays have Bautista and Reyes who could fit either of those positions and could send maybe Matt Kemp to St. Louis with some salary like the Prince Fielder trade. Dodgers could take on either Bautista at third or Reyes at short, and we could obtain Miller. I know Matt Kemp is owed a lot of money, but is younger at 29 and if we send Bautista, Dodgers could send over 30 million to St. Louis, or if we send Reyes to Dodgers, we could throw in 15mill and Dodgers throw in 15 mill to St. Louis. We could also send JA Happ in the trade to the dodgers as we know they are looking for rotation depth. We could also include Janssen to st. Louis, and we could get Kolten wong in return. St. Louis gets Kemp who's 29, but owed 127mill over 6 years, but could be offset by 30-40 million cash and Casey Janssen. Dodgers get Bautista with friendly contract and can fill third base and JA Happ. Jays get Miller and Kolten Wong.

haha.... well also articles like only gets the brain churning. http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article/stl/cardinals-inbox-would-st-louis-trade-for-troy-tulowitzki?ymd=20131118&content_id=64009058&vkey=news_stl

My god, the prince fielder trade frees up money so they can resign max scherzer. Everyone paying a premium for young pitching makes me only feel we need to get something done to acquire young pitching. We'll never be able to acquire high quality pitching via free agency. Item number two, who would've expected a prince fielder trade, which only truly means that anyone is tradeable.

Yup. I know, but interesting to see those types of comparisons.

I love this how fangraphs did another trade value classification. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2013-trade-value-35-31/ Shelby Miller and Jose are very close to each other.

Well I did say we had different valuations on Lynn/Kelly versus Miller, but in a Jays trade I would only ask for Miller as his potential is very high, like you said. I wouldn't want to acquire Lynn/Kelly as it just back fills our rotation. My thinking is what combination of Bautista/Reyes/etc would we need to give up to get Miller etc.

I don't think Melky for Trout is on the same level as what I proposed. Trout I feel is almost untradeable, but I'm sure certain realistic packages could tempt them like Hernadez, or Kershaw, but now we're really off topic. I don't think Miller, Taveras, Martinez or Wong has the same proven track record as Trout. It's like the package for halladay with Drabek, Darnaud, Gose, didn't really turn out great. Those 3 prospects are still in the TBD aisle. Rasmus was considered can't miss at a certain time and still got traded. I think their are two sides to the coin and as prospects, you're still waiting on potential. Trout is no longer a prospect and is a proven commodity, while Melky was PED and only had 1 spectacular year under scrutiny and is nowhere close to Reyes and Bautista. So you overexaggerated quite a bit, but I understand the how much St. Louis would give up, and that's depleting their farm. I don't think they would do that like the Jays did last year. We traded as of Nov 7, 2012, #1 (Darnaud), #2 (Marsnick), #3(Snydergaard), #5(Nicolino), #8 (Hecc) and former #10(woj 2012 ranking), former #5 (alvarez) for 1 Cy Young, 1 all-star SS, 1 former cy young, and 1 aging all-star SP. Cardinals as of Jan 2013; Taveras #1, Miller #2, Martinez#3, Wong #5 for 1 perennial all-star RF, 1 all-star SS, 1 solid closer. You're right that is a bit much if we're ignoring Marlins salary dump and just look at talent and maybe we'd have to add to our package like Delabar (all-star reliever), Happ (#5 pitcher), Low A prospects.

I was reading on Cardinals board that they value Kelly and Lynn quite a bit and together they are worth more than just Miller by itself. Some people even say Kelly is worth more than Miller, but of course that's wide eye fans. I think that's a big package for Reyes, and that Mozeliak has come out and said that depth is a key to their world series run. I think they'd want to keep two MLB starters, and if we did Reyes, Happ, Nolin and $12mill over 3 years, for Miller and Wong, they might be willing to bite.

Although some people believe it's a ridiculous trade, I think reading an analysis gets the old wheels churning. It spurs creativity and thought. Maybe this exact trade doesn't work, but hopefully it can facilitate other talks or possibilities. I read tons of articles and always reading those comments on articles are fun, yet sometimes quite ignorant. Regardless, it's more of a past time in the offseason until baseball starts up again.

seriously, he hijacked my thread and he's telling me what i'm doing here. That's hilarious.

Criticism is fine in context.

I spin back to last year where the Jays were on the other side of the fence and were willing to give up prospects for established players. I know it didn't turn out well, but a lot of analysts agreed that it wasn't horrible moves and it definitely seemed logical. The amount they gave up in the trades was questionable, but it gives you a sample of what to expect. Let's look at what people thought at the time, versus looking back over the result, because hindsight is always 20/20. Dickey = D'arnaud, Syndeergaard, Buck. That's arguably #1 and #3 prospects in the system, and two in top50'ish for a one time Cy Young, pitching in NL with a unique pitch. It's quite interesting, but even looking back when we gave up Roy Halladay, the amount of prospects given up was huge. I know pitching is more expensive than hitters, but I think two elite prospects is worth it. Johnson, Buerhle, Reyes trade for Marsnick, Hecch, Nicolino, escobar, Alvarez, Descalfini and this one is much tougher to quantify because of the salary dump involved, but the package was able to obtain 3 of top 10 prospects with mlb ready pitcher in Alvarez and another up and coming prospect. I think coming from our side, some people agreed to sacrifice some prospects for a chance to win the world series and the Cardinals although just came back from a near world series, they have an even better chance with the team that they could put together. I even scouted a few of the Cardinals message boards and they are definitely willing to give up quite a bit to get a single impact player like Tulo or even Reyes. Imagine if we offered Reyes, Bautista, Janssen and Happ.

Man Randy, you are such an antagonizer. I guess we can't really know what they want unless you're in Mozliek's head, so we're truly all speculating and basing only what we hear from reports. Again, everything is all about opinion, you have yours and I have mine. Making accusations and having such a narrow view about things really makes your comments look more like a rant than an analysis. If you bothered to even read what's currently being reported from legitimate sources, you can see I have some validity in what i'm saying. Some of it maybe rumours or based on sources, but it's as much as you can without being at the GM Meetings. Please go dump on someone else's thread. Easy to poke holes in other people rather than trying to write something credible yourself.

I thought about the salary implications but if they were willing to add Tulo (29) at like $130mill over 7 years, paying for Reyes(30) (86 over 4 years) and Bautista(32) (28mill over 2 yrs plus 14mill option), is still significantly less salary to take on. Tulo will be 36 at the end of his contract, while Reyes and Bautista will only by 34. Also, with Tulo's inflated Rockies stats, vs. Reyes who played a long time with NY Mets. The cardinals have $45.426mill coming off books, though raises should add about 15mill, so $30mill in flexibility if they keep their similar $116Mill salary from 2013. So they would keep their payroll at pretty much the same level, while providing a big bump to their lineup. Reyes, Carp, Molina, Bautisa, Craig, Holliday, Freese, Jay, or Replace Freese with Adams, and put Bautista at 3rd. while rotation stays relatively the same with Wacha filling in for Miller and you have wainwright, Wacha, Kelly, lynn, Garcia/Rosenthal. That team looks scary and they got a lot stronger and can keep team from 2014 to 2016. They have Jason Motte (8mill) coming off books in 2014 and with tv revenue, could add some players on discounts just because of how competitive their team is. They still have 4 picks in first two rounds.

2 years ago, the Cardinals traded a 5 tool outfielder at age 24, #3 prospect in BA, and was slumping that year, but had a spectacular previous season, but felt replaceable with a developing outfielder(Jon Jay). They packaged them with a few relievers to acquire a middle rotation starter and two experienced relievers. This was Rasmus and mediocre relievers for Edwin Jackson, Dotel, and Rzep. They did win the world series with all 3 players providing huge roles in the playoffs. I think Bautista or Reyes > Jackson, Dotel Rzep, so I do believe that Reyes and Bautista are each worth a top end prospect, and when you add Janssen in with their team friendly contracts, you could definitely add a third top end prospect. That would be Shelby Miller, Taveras, and Martinez or Wong. It's tough to quantify winning the world series, but paying a little bit extra to get there is what teams know what they'll need to do. I don't begin to know what the Cardinals think about their own organization, but based on precedent trade, and the fact that acquiring top end players is becoming more and more expensive, I think this trade is reasonable. Also, although Matheny said they are looking to keep Rosenthal as closer, the kid has 3 quality pitches and has much more value as a starter. They have Wainwright, Wacha, Lynn, Kelly and then Rosenthal not even talking about Garcia, Lyons. The ability for St. Louis to have a still formidable starting rotation and adding an all-star SS and all-star RF, and a proven closer. Maybe the Jays send over one of Santos/Cecil/Delabar instead of Janssen if that's what Cardinal wants.

Power bat option was about the cardinals, not the Jays. I do agree that the Jays need more players with OBP or hit for average, and not homeruns.

Huh? They said they have too many MLB ready starters.

Ellsbury doesn't provide the power they want, and they also lose a pick for the signing, and they probably looking at 25mill/year to get Ellsbury vs. Bautista at 14mill/year.

2011 they admitted that those experienced relievers helped them win the world series. they were important parts of that bullpen. also, I don't think bliziek was a mediocre prospect, but may have been in their amazing system.

they said Wacha is untouchable but are willing to trade Miller. So the cardinals must be dumb then.

I think Reyes and Tulo comparisons are somewhat close. A whole other argument could be made to compare the two, but let's not get into that. Bautista could play 3B and allow Allen Craig to play RF and having Bautista provides that flexibility like I said. CF could be something covered by trading Matt Adams if they want and roll the dice on Freese at 3rd. You don't just sell low on an arb player, players can revive their career like aaron hill. Inferior proven talent? didn't know having all-stars was so inferior. If it's so tiring, don't read this post and contribute elsewhere. This is an open discussion forum. the axford trade shows who they gave up, Michael Blieziek who performed very well in AA/AAA even in PCL. Still worth something. And you're just posting random one-off comments without doing a true analysis. If you're so adamant, please provide a full spectrum analysis giving both sides of the equation with factual research, like I have tried. Yes, I gave more weighting to blue jays players and was hoping to get more off the cardinals, and I was dreaming for Taveras, but altering the trade parameters are possible. Jeez

What do you guys think Cardinals would give up for Reyes, Bautista and Janssen? Miller, Martinez and Wong?

2015 Roster =) I think this highlights the youth and low payroll. I know that a hundred different things could happen. I look at the offseason threads from 2 years ago, and the projection for the team looks different than what we see now. Any young player could become the next Arencibia and completely regress. At least some of these players are less risk, have high floors and project very well like Taveras, Miller, Sanchez, Martinez, Lawrie. 60mill Guaranteed + Rasmus Ext. + Arb. Numbers (30mill?) Lineup: Gose (25), Taveras(23), Encarnacion(32), Rasmus(29), Lawrie(25), Wong(25), AJ jimenez (25), DH, Izturis Rotation: Dickey(Old), Miller(25), Martinez(24), Sanchez(23), Stroman (24), Hutchison (24), Drabek (27) Depth: Buerhle (Old), Romero, Happ, Morrow? Bullpen: Santos, Delabar, Cecil, Rogers, Perez, Loup, ... Do everything we can, to sell high, and bring back youth.